TX - Police respond to reports of shooter at Santa Fe High School, 18 May 2018

[bluesneakers]

Of course but you implied it was unfair... It isn't unfair, same punishment for the same crime.

It is unfair when the fines are figured in. People with fewer financial resources can't afford the fine and do jail time instead (which also leads to a loss of income so that's another layer of punishment), or if they can afford to pay the fine they lose a larger percentage of their income. And as for having their guns confiscated maybe they should be reimbursed the value of the weapons so as not to be punished twice again.

 

[RANCH]

Why? There are fines for other things? Why would this one be more injurious than a traffic fine?

Under my rules, they wouldn't be allowed to buy more guns or have a time suspension.

So the fine will be equal to a traffic fine? That doesn't seem to be much of a deterrent to me.

 

[RANCH]

Of course but you implied it was unfair... It isn't unfair, same punishment for the same crime.

The same punishment can effect poor people differently than rich people.

 

[bluesneakers]

So the fine will be equal to a traffic fine? That doesn't seem to be much of a deterrent to me.

No, the fines wouldn't be equal as in the same dollar amounts. At least that's not how I read Jennifer's response.

Would potentially losing $400 really not be enough of a reason to lock up your guns? Frankly I don't get how wanting to keep a gun out of a child's or criminal's hands isn't a deterrent for many people so I'm not sure what price tag would make a difference in their minds.

 

[Bernina]

I am sorry, how would making 21 years the minimum age for buying guns, have prevented this young man taking his father's guns?

Read the Drinking Act of 1984. It's self explanatory. Purchase or possession. Apply that to firearms.
Parents would be more inclined to keep their weapons locked in safes or with trigger guards. It would give a lot more teeth to suing the parents if their "child" used one of their weapons in a crime. Exceptions would be given for adult supervised shooting at ranges, hunting, and competitions.

Fear of lawsuit stops a whole lot of people from being reckless.

 

[jjenny]

Could have been even worse if explosives went off.

"Some explosives found in connection to the Santa Fe High School mass shooting that killed 10 Friday were functional -- a revelation that could result in federal charges against 17-year-old Dimitrios Pagourtzis, authorities said Sunday."
https://www.chron.com/news/houston-...g-were-functional-12929376.php?ipid=happening

 

[Bernina]

I attended a parochial school for junior high, then high school.

There is even less money involved in parochial schools yet very few have ever had school shootings.

Why is that?

:goodpost:

THAT is a really good question. I don't have a clue but it might help understand even more of the differences why public schools have this type of tragedy in comparison to parochial or private schools vs. the amount of money that is put into these places of education.

 

[Jennifer17]

Wouldn't have prevented this one but would have prevented Parkland.

Or he too, would have stolen one.

 

[x_files]

:goodpost:

THAT is a really good question. I don't have a clue but it might help understand even more of the differences why public schools have this type of tragedy in comparison to parochial or private schools vs. the amount of money that is put into these places of education.

My guess is that problematic students get expelled? rather than ignored.

 

[Tbone144]

OK Everyone,

Let's try this again. Discuss the shooting, the shooter, the police and anything directly connected to this case. Please leave out gun control or any gun argument.

Perhaps when we move to the new forum next week we can start up the gun control thread again.

Please do not insult each other, do not make some clever remark and then deny you were trying to attack someone.

Please behave. Timeouts will be flying out of here like ducks flying to their winter home if it all starts up again.

Thank you,

Posting again so people can read it before posting.

 

[Bernina]

So rich people would pay the fine and buy new guns.

Poor people wouldn't have the money to pay the fine and would either be given a break and pay nothing which would negate the whole penalty or have their wages garnished which could lead to homelessness or other unconscionable things happening to them.

I don't like that idea.

Isn't that how drug laws work in this country? Or any crime for that matter? If a person has money, they can get away with ALMOST anything. Poor people don't get a break.

 

[Bernina]

What if the gun was stolen by someone outside the owner's family?

Would the owner have the right to sue the person who stole the gun?

If the owner was doing their due diligence, their guns would be in a safe and/or have trigger locks.

 

[Bernina]

It is unfair when the fines are figured in. People with fewer financial resources can't afford the fine and do jail time instead (which also leads to a loss of income so that's another layer of punishment), or if they can afford to pay the fine they lose a larger percentage of their income. And as for having their guns confiscated maybe they should be reimbursed the value of the weapons so as not to be punished twice again.

We're applying this unsupervised possession of a weapon by a person under 21. Classify it as a felony and watch gun owners become more diligent.

 

[jjenny]

Or he too, would have stolen one.

Lets just waive our hands and not try anything then. Keep on watching those shootings.

 

[bluesneakers]

We're applying this unsupervised possession of a weapon by a person under 21. Classify it as a felony and watch gun owners become more diligent.

Right. I was just thinking of ways to make the law apply fairly (as much as possible) to gun owners no matter their income or resources.

 

[jjenny]

That doesn't matter. The students were being shot for that long. Many of them were bleeding out for that long. The only one who was pulled to safety was the injured cop. Because cops have to be protected. Everybody else needs to have guns pointed at them, so the cops will be safe. 30 minutes is unexceptable. With today's weapons 500 people could be dead in 30 minutes. An entire school could be wiped out in 30 minutes.

How would it be possible for victims to be removed if perp was preventing access to the victims? The claim that it took swat 30 minutes to get there isn't accurate. The whole episode lasted 30 minutes. Apparently he was exchanging gunfire with cops during some of these 30 minutes. Amazingly he managed to avoid getting shot which only shows how difficult it is to apprehend an armed shooter.

"Although officials have praised a swift response, it remains unclear just how quickly police got to the art lab on the 1,400-student campus. Galveston County Judge Mark Henry, the county's top administrator, has said police exchanged rounds with Pagourtzis "for quite a while" before he surrendered a half-hour after the first reports of a shooter on campus."
https://www.mprnews.org/story/2018/...onse-to-texas-school-shooting-remains-unclear

 

[MaryG12]

My guess is that problematic students get expelled? rather than ignored.

You bring up a very good point and I can share the following:

I doubt this guy, will call him B. for now, would have shot up our high school, but he was expelled for illegal drug possession. Had to finish his education via boot camp. He was a fellow student in my class (same graduation year), and there were about 300 in my class, so despite the size, we all knew each other by name and face. Naturally it was not talked about a whole lot among us students because we knew better.

So expulsion could very well be a factor.

 

[MaryG12]

In Pagourtzis's case, he also needs to be charged with possession of a sawed-off shotgun (illegal by federal law) and home-made explosives.


Also - since this happened in Texas I doubt it will be difficult for the prosecuter to get him on death row.


Pagourtzis may have wanted to "tell his story" but instinct tells me his final chapter will be lethal injection.


Just another cancer curer.

 

[Bernina]

No, the fines wouldn't be equal as in the same dollar amounts. At least that's not how I read Jennifer's response.

Would potentially losing $400 really not be enough of a reason to lock up your guns? Frankly I don't get how wanting to keep a gun out of a child's or criminal's hands isn't a deterrent for many people so I'm not sure what price tag would make a difference in their minds.

I'd put the fine in the thousands. Let's say $10,000, all gun rights revoked forever,and jail time. If a crime was committed, quadruple that + prison.


When civil forfeiture is used with illegal drugs, how many parents tell their children "Don't you EVER think about bringing illegal drugs into my house or my property"? In Arizona, I could have lost my house, vehicles, and land if my children had. Arizona was ruthless. It's the process of trying to get your property back that costs $$$$.

With the threat of heavy fines, loss of firearms and jail or prison time, how many people would tighten up their security for their weapons and do everything possible to prevent their child from getting their hands on them?

How hard is it to get trigger locks and/or a safe?

Do we even KNOW if the father of this killer had one and/or the other? What possible reason did this 17 year old have to access these weapons?

Seriously, what the *#@* was this father, (or mother) thinking?

As I said, I am a gun owner. If my child had been killed or wounded by this murderer, I sure as *#@* would be suing someone. I would destroy their life as their son had mine. This is full on "irresponsible" as a gun owner with minors. It SHOULD be ILLEGAL.

 

[jjenny]

In Pagourtzis's case, he also needs to be charged with possession of a sawed-off shotgun (illegal by federal law) and home-made explosives.


Also - since this happened in Texas I doubt it will be difficult for the prosecuter to get him on death row.


Pagourtzis may have wanted to "tell his story" but instinct tells me his final chapter will be lethal injection.


Just another cancer curer.

He is 17. It is impossible to get him on death row because he is under age.