TX - Police respond to reports of shooter at Santa Fe High School, 18 May 2018

[Jax49]

OK Everyone,

Let's try this again. Discuss the shooting, the shooter, the police and anything directly connected to this case. Please leave out gun control or any gun argument.

Perhaps when we move to the new forum next week we can start up the gun control thread again.

Please do not insult each other, do not make some clever remark and then deny you were trying to attack someone.

Please behave. Timeouts will be flying out of here like ducks flying to their winter home if it all starts up again.

Thank you,

Bumping, in case anyone missed.

 

[Bey]

Okie dokie. Makes it somewhat harder to discuss a shooting without mentioning guns at all, but them's the rules.
Apologies, I misread that post first time and thought it only mentioned gun control.

 

[gitana1]

I don't know about the heroic part but until any details that would come out to say otherwise...they did the best they could under the circumstances. IMO

Ugh. I'm out with this. When you face a mass tragedy and deal with the first responders and see what they do and how it affects them and how they're criticized and how they choose to do it anyhow, you will know what heroes they are.

Those two men rushed toward gun fire and got shot at and one shot in an effort to rescue kids. They are absolutely heroes. Regardless of their job description. Or maybe because of their job description, because they chose ajob like that and because they acted accordingly without that job in order to save lives.

This conversation is super offensive to me.

 

[jjenny]

Agreed. They tried. They risked their lives and almost got killed trying to save those kids. I don't give a you know what that this is what they signed up for. Thank God some have the balls to sign up for that. It doesn't make them any less heroic.

Geez its kind of offensive that they are being criticized here or that their heroism is being denied. If I was a parent of kids in that school I would be thanking them. Even if my kid got shot. They tried to the point of risking their own deaths. They are probably destroyed mentally that they couldn't do more.

Exactly. And I thought it is supposed to be a LE friendly site.
Officer went in, confronted the shooter, got shot and almost killed (and apparently could lose his arm), but I see posts claiming that's not even heroic because that was his job?

 

[kimlynn]

Agreed. They tried. They risked their lives and almost got killed trying to save those kids. I don't give a you know what that this is what they signed up for. Thank God some have the balls to sign up for that. It doesn't make them any less heroic.

Geez its kind of offensive that they are being criticized here or that their heroism is being denied. If I was a parent of kids in that school I would be thanking them. Even if my kid got shot. They tried to the point of risking their own deaths. They are probably destroyed mentally that they couldn't do more.

But that is the job they signed up for. And I'm sure the parents are thankful. IMO

 

[x_files]

I don't think the idea of arming teachers is a very viable solution.

First of all, being armed creates a feeling of apprehension and danger not conducive to teaching. It utterly changes the focus.


Here's a professor who is highly trained in firearms usage and has a conceal carry license explaining how it feels and why he thinks it would be a terrible idea:


"Being armed places you in a state of mind that is not conducive to teaching. Carrying a firearm responsibly means that you are operating in a state of heightened awareness and caution. You are aware of where your firearm is at all times. You are aware of your environment. You are aware of everyone around you. And whether you want to admit it or not, you are looking for threat—trying to identify whether or not you might need to use that firearm you are carrying.
Such mindsets might be totally appropriate for a law enforcement officer, a security officer, or a soldier. They are not at all appropriate for educating.
Personally, I cannot imagine walking into class every day being mentally prepared to both educate hungry minds and execute another human being if the situation required it.


When educators become enforcers, education stops."


Much more of his experiences and reasoning as well as a general discussion of arming teachers- how it would work, and obstacles to it.


I urge anyone who wants to honestly research the issue and intellectually debate the pros and cons, to read it.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.citylab.com/amp/article/554129/


Second, some teachers experience their own mental health or other stability issues - molesting students, feeding them semen, humiliating or abusing students, having psychotic episodes, having rage issues. Etc. I think more armed teachers increases the chance that a nut could be carrying. (But read below about how Texas already deals with this issue).


Third, from my own observations, only highly trained individuals who consistently retrain on a regular basis and are in a state of alert at all times would be able to effectively neutralize an active shooter. Some may be able to respond if they weren't in the direct line of fire and had time to gather themselves and get ready to use their firearm. Like maybe a teacher like the one in this tragedy who stood next to the door. If he had a gun he could also have it cocked and ready to shoot as the intruder entered. But for teachers already in the class when the shooter barges in, even those who are highly trained would lack the response time usually.


But either way, many armed teachers would simply panic or accidentally hit an innocent person because they can't aim well, in such a panicked situation where there are moving targets, or purposefully hit an innocent person thinking they are the bad guy.


So, for example, armed teacher standing next to the door waiting for the bad guy to enter? A kid running into the classroom trying to get away from the gunman could be easily executed by the teacher. By mistake.


Fourth, basic firearm safety. There are way too many accidents some fatal, or suicides or homicides, related to responsible gun owners. Most people are responsible gun owners. Until they're not.


It is human nature to make mistakes. The most highly trained gun users make mistakes. But with a deadly weapon, mistakes can be, well, deadly.


Check out this highly trained law enforcement officer shooting himself in a a room full of kids during a lecture on gun safety. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHEOSyMqug


It's just too easy to forget where you placed it. Not know it's loaded. Leave the safety off. Leave it where a student can access it. I mean there's a lot going on in a classroom. It's busy and distracting and intense. But we expect them to be safe armed guards at the same time?


And what about some psycho kid overpowering the teacher and taking their weapon? Kid is standing next to teacher and suddenly flips?


Fifth, the expense would be too great. Texas already arms teachers. Many districts have plans that allow for the arming of staff under controlled circumstances that include 80 hours of training and mental health testing. (I think the mental health testing would be key but not foolproof but the training wouldn't be near enough to adequately prepare them to safely and quickly and effectively respond, or to avoid accidents, IMO).


But the cost of such programs is prohibitive. Please read this article which discusses the programs Texas districts have and how they work. To engage in an honest discussion, it is necessary to fully consider both sides and the Texas programs admittedly seem well thought out and to address the main concerns to arming teachers, (although it doesn't address the effect on the teachers and their ability to tech while fully armed).
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.caller.com/amp/364677002


Sixth. Most teachers oppose the idea. I don't think there re enough responsible, stable teachers who want to be armed to make this a viable preventive option.
"Nearly 75% of teachers oppose the idea of being trained to carry guns in schools, a new survey finds. According to an online Gallup surveyreleased Friday, 63% surveyed strongly opposed the idea of arming teachers, with 10% somewhat opposing the measure. Only 11% strongly favored the idea, and 7% were neutral. Yet just 18% of the teachers surveyed said they would go through training to carry a gun if their district or administrators provided it.
Meanwhile, six in 10 teachers think schools would become less safe if educators armed themselves, though seven in 10 think it would in effective in stopping the next mass shooting."
https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/time/5203935/arming-teachers-gun-control-poll


So what to do? There are other options and better uses of resources that would be funneled toward arming teachers, IMO. Here is a comprehensive look at how some European nations are handling the problem using an approach that tries to prevent the massacres before they ever come close to fruition rather than reacting when it happens:

"In a first step, European nations drafted schemes to identify at-risk individuals. Swiss authorities, for instance, have a list of about 2,000 individuals they suspect of being willing to commit shootings. All of them are frequently approached by authorities, along with psychologists.
Other countries, including Germany, have attempted to set up government-led national networks dedicated to spot potential attackers and to stop them before they can pursue their plans. Funding for in-school psychologists was increased exponentially. Teachers at every school are now being trained to act as “trusted personnel,” as a first point of contact either for students who want to seek psychological support themselves or for others who want to raise alarm over the behavior of an individual. Psychologists are then called in to examine each case further.


In a second step, at-risk individuals are barred from accessing firearms. In Switzerland, they are forced to hand over their weapons immediately or are barred from purchasing new ones. Psychological tests are now also standard practice for Germans younger than 25 who want to purchase firearms."
https://www.seattletimes.com/nation...e-armed-other-countries-have-different-ideas/


Much more at link. Please read it.

Anyone have a creepy teacher you feared? Now, imagine him having a gun.

 

[jjenny]

But that is the job they signed up for. And I'm sure the parents are thankful. IMO

Just because you signed up for it, doesn't mean you are going to act as a hero when the time comes.

 

[bluesneakers]

They could've saved lives though. They tried to. But I think it does illustrate the point that training and arming more staff is not the best solution. Even very trained and fully armed pros can't stop a madman who breaks the routine of the day with sudden, shocking violence.

It's just not was easy as people think.

Exactly! I think it's time to re-think the armed officers at schools as a deterrent or safety measure. It's not working, of it is working it's not working well enough.

 

[kimlynn]

Just because you signed up for it, doesn't mean you are going to act as a hero when the time comes.

True and as I posted before they did the best they could under the circumstances as far as we know.
But that is what they are trained to do and they should expect that they may get hurt or killed as a result of that type of job.IMO

 

[jjenny]

True and as I posted before they did the best they could under the circumstances as far as we know.
But that is what they are trained to do and they should expect that they may get hurt or killed as a result of that type of job.IMO

So do cashiers working at a gas station. I don't get your point.

 

[bluesneakers]

Anyone have a creepy teacher you feared? Now, imagine him having a gun.

Oh my god.

Teachers were my worst bullies in school. My 6th grader teacher was physically violent with me. I have no problem imagining her waving a gun in my face.

 

[kimlynn]

So do cashiers working at a gas station. I don't get your point.

The point is we are living in a dangerous gun happy world and people are prone to using guns to solve issues.
LE know or should know that they may face down the barrel of a gun at some point.

 

[cybervampira]

Two Santa Fe shooting victims back in dugout for baseball team's playoff game

"We're a strong community and there's nothing that can faze us," said Santa Fe pitcher Rome Shubert, who 36 hours earlier had a bullet pass through the back of his head as he and teammate Trenton Beazley hid from a gunman who had opened fire in their classroom.

Article: https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...oting-victims-return-baseball-team/627203002/
https://twitter.com/skhanjr/status/998064265843093505?s=21

 

[jjenny]

The point is we are living in a dangerous gun happy world and people are prone to using guns to solve issues.
LE know or should know that they may face down the barrel of a gun at some point.

Being a cop is not even in the 10 most dangerous jobs. I guess all these other workers better be ready to die any minute.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...es-25-most-dangerous-jobs-america/1002500001/

 

[KaaBoom]

Again, where do you get 30 minutes timeline? It hasn't been reported by authorities as far as I can tell.

I could give you hundreds of sources. It has been widely reported.

Law enforcement received the first calls at 7:32 a.m. CT, according to an affidavit filed in Galveston County court Friday evening. It wasn't until 30 minutes later that Pagourtzis would surrender and admit to targeting students he didn't like inside the school, authorities said.

Texas school shooting timeline_ How the 30-minute attack unfolded

From first word of the shooting, at 7:32 a.m.Friday, until confirmation that the suspect was in custody, the attack lasted about half an hour.

Dispatch records indicate that law enforcement first entered the building about seven minutes after learning of the assault. The suspect was said to be in custody by shortly after 8 a.m.

Gunman blasted through door, lingered for about 30 minutes _ The Sacramento Bee

SANTA FE, Texas (AP) — The suspect in the Texas school shooting began his attack by firing a shotgun through an art classroom door, shattering a glass pane and sending panicked students to the entryway to block him from getting inside, witnesses said.

Dmitrios Pagourtzis fired again through the wooden part of the door and fatally hit a student in the chest. He then lingered for about 30 minutes in a warren of four rooms, killing seven more students and two teachers before exchanging gunfire with police and surrendering, officials said.

Gunman blasted through door, lingered for about 30 minutes - San Antonio Express-News

 

[kimlynn]

Being a cop is not even in the 10 most dangerous jobs. I guess all these other workers better be ready to die any minute.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...es-25-most-dangerous-jobs-america/1002500001/

Probably considering gun proliferation.

 

[x_files]

Oh my god.

Teachers were my worst bullies in school. My 6th grader teacher was physically violent with me. I have no problem imagining her waving a gun in my face.

Exactly. Now, imagine teachers that have sexually harrassed or abused students with a gun. I would not feel comfortable returning to school.

 

[bluesneakers]

Being a cop is not even in the 10 most dangerous jobs. I guess all these other workers better be ready to die any minute.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...es-25-most-dangerous-jobs-america/1002500001/

And school shooting deaths outnumber military deaths. I wonder if students know.

 

[kimlynn]

Ugh. I'm out with this. When you face a mass tragedy and deal with the first responders and see what they do and how it affects them and how they're criticized and how they choose to do it anyhow, you will know what heroes they are.

Those two men rushed toward gun fire and got shot at and one shot in an effort to rescue kids. They are absolutely heroes. Regardless of their job description. Or maybe because of their job description, because they chose ajob like that and because they acted accordingly without that job in order to save lives.

This conversation is super offensive to me.

I actually agreed with your earlier post except for your use of the word hero. It isn't heroic to do what you are trained to do.
They cared enough and did what they could and that is all anybody can ask.IMO

 

[jjenny]

I could give you hundreds of sources. It has been widely reported.



Texas school shooting timeline_ How the 30-minute attack unfolded



Gunman blasted through door, lingered for about 30 minutes _ The Sacramento Bee



Gunman blasted through door, lingered for about 30 minutes - San Antonio Express-News

Whole episode taking 30 minutes obviously doesn't mean it took swat 30 minutes to arrive after the cops on the scene called them.