GUILTY TX - Sherin Mathews, 3, Richardson, 7 Oct 2017 #9

[Karinna]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1570061363077836&substory_index=0&id=123869457697041

Wondering if the COD as "homicide" is a typo? Earlier it was stated as undetermined due to decomposition. How is homicide a COD??

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I think the "homicidal violence" might somehow be supportive of the "felony injury to a child" charge that WM is already charged with?

 

[nannymo]

I don't think choking on "milk" constitutes "homicidal violence"...

Try a different story "Daddy"!

I am still on the fence about Sini. I personally feel she had a hand in it and WM is covering for her. Someone has to take the fall. It might as well be WM instead of them both (He tells Sini when they make up the story they are going to tell LE). JMO

 

[BeesInMyBonnet]

Does anyone know the criteria on how they come up with "homicidal violence" when they say the body was too decomposed to find the cause of death? How did they come about with that result?

Hannah Graham’s death was deemed “homicidal violence.”

This quote is from an article about another little girl whose parents killed her. It is a helpful explanation of the term: “‘Undetermined homicidal violence’ is used in cases in which the physical autopsy can't determine a cause of death, . . . yet the circumstances surrounding the case and the finding of the body and the condition of the body would indicate the manner of death is a homicide." http://amp.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article9055037.html


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[Margo/Mom]

Hannah Graham’s death was deemed “homicidal violence.”

This quote is from an article about another little girl whose parents killed her. It is a helpful explanation of the term: “‘Undetermined homicidal violence’ is used in cases in which the physical autopsy can't determine a cause of death, . . . yet the circumstances surrounding the case and the finding of the body and the condition of the body would indicate the manner of death is a homicide." http://amp.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article9055037.html


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My thinking is that there may have been multiple injuries, but it couldn't be determined which one(s) actually caused death, or possibly conclude which occurred prior to death and which may have happened after.

 

[TeaTime]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1570061363077836&substory_index=0&id=123869457697041

Wondering if the COD as "homicide" is a typo? Earlier it was stated as undetermined due to decomposition. How is homicide a COD??

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Cause of death can be one of 5 things: homicide, suicide, accident, natural or undetermined.
Manner of death can be: blunt force trauma, stab wound, gunshot, poison, etc.

Yep, I think that is how it goes.

Homicide means someone caused the death.

Homicidal violence is that violence which is intended to kill. I would interpret this as being more than one fatality causing injury and no ability to determine which one killed her.

People have argued for 20 years over whether the head blow or the noose killed Jon Benet, both are capable of causing death. That she was the victim of a homicide has never been up for debate. Someone other than she caused those injuries.

I think it will be the same thing here, two of more possibilities.

JMHO

 

[edimmu]

Cause of death can be one of 4 things: homicide, suicide, accident or undetermined.
Manner of death can be: blunt force trauma, stab wound, gunshot, poison, etc.

Homicidal violence is that violence which is intended to kill and if listed as manner of death, it would be because there were too many possible fatal injuries to determine which one caused her death.

Whomever killed her meant to kill her.

JMHO

Is it safe to assume homicidal violence is murder and not manslaughter?

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[1&2&3]

How can an autopsy determine who the responsible person was for Sherrin’s death?

I read a statement yesterday and went back to read it again where it says nothing points to Sini’s Involvement in Sherrin’s death. (Not exact words, same meaning).

 

[Karinna]

Is it safe to assume homicidal violence is murder and not manslaughter?

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IMO they might be able to up the charge to 2nd. degree murder because i think premeditation could be difficult to prove in this case, but WM's has already admitted to being there when Sherin died to whatever happened to cause her death, and to dispose of her body in the culvert.
(quote)
second degree murder

n. a non-premeditated killing, resulting from an assault in which death of the victim was a distinct possibility. Second degree murder is different from First Degree Murder which is a premeditated, intentional killing, or results from a vicious crime such as arson, rape, or armed robbery. Exact distinctions on degree vary by state. (See: murder, first degree murder, manslaughter)
https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Second+degree+murder

 

[EA18G]

Cause of death can be one of 5 things: homicide, suicide, accident, natural or undetermined.
Manner of death can be: blunt force trauma, stab wound, gunshot, poison, etc.

Yep, I think that is how it goes.

Homicide means someone caused the death.

Homicidal violence is that violence which is intended to kill. I would interpret this as being more than one fatality causing injury and no ability to determine which one killed her.

People have argued for 20 years over whether the head blow or the noose killed Jon Benet, both are capable of causing death. That she was the victim of a homicide has never been up for debate. Someone other than she caused those injuries.

I think it will be the same thing here, two of more possibilities.

JMHO

I would like to know the "manner of death"

 

[Rocco]

It was reported that the Mathews were given a copy of the autopsy report (as if they need it---they already know how they killed her). I wonder how long it will take Wesley to craft story #3, based on what the report states.

 

[4SAM]

It was reported that the Mathews were given a copy of the autopsy report (as if they need it---they already know how they killed her). I wonder how long it will take Wesley to craft story #3, based on what the report states.

I wouldn't think that they would give that type of information to the accused parents!! Wow

 

[Niner]

I would like to know who made the decision not to release to the public the results of the autopsy/toxicology? Is this like a gag order, or what? What if someone who is privy to the results decided to share? I am so ignorant of our legal processes.. Also, grand jury at the end of the month..what will they be convened about..these results? Or evidence not shared with the public? So many questions..


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Was (the bold) about grand jury convening at the end of month in one of the articles posted?

TIA!

 

[Amonet]

I would like to know the "manner of death"

I would have thought it was the reverse of what was posted on the previous page, ie that homicidal violence would be the manner of death, and the cause of death would be the specific type of homicidal violence. In this case it appears to be undetermined, but that seems to imply multiple blunt force traumas, and any of those could have been the cause of death, or that there might have been blunt force trauma (or throwing of a child) combined with something like strangulation, and they just can't tell which particular injury actually caused 'death'? I would have thought that 'homicidal violence' on a child this age, combined with no definite cause of death would mean multiple broken bones, or possibly a skull injury. Maybe they just can't rule out something like strangulation combined with other injury(ies) they found, so it's sort of a technicality to not be able to declare cause of death?

That's just my conjecture, though.

Is it definite that the report won't be released to the public at the moment, or is that speculation based on it not yet being released?

I am curious as to how the report will guide the DA in deciding on further charges for WM and SM, and when those further charges will be made public. This will be a trial that I would like to follow, and I sincerely hope it will bring justice for sweet Sherin.

 

[Lucyray]

Was (the bold) about grand jury convening at the end of month in one of the articles posted?

TIA!

I am not exactly sure which article stated the info, so I just Googled to see..it is listed in several reports, Fox for example. Put in Sherin Mathews grand jury January, see what you find.


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[DakotaMayi]

Was (the bold) about grand jury convening at the end of month in one of the articles posted?

TIA!

Niner:

[FONT=&quot]Police in Richardson have released their findings in Sherin's October death to the Dallas County district attorney's office, and a grand jury this month is expected to review [/FONT]charges filed against the girl's adoptive parents[FONT=&quot], Wesley and Sini Mathews.[/FONT]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...l-homicide-victim-texas-autopsy-finds-n834416

 

[TeaTime]

Is it safe to assume homicidal violence is murder and not manslaughter?

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If I am not mistaken, 'homicidal violence' includes the element of 'intent', meaning the violence was intended and was so great that the outcome was reasonably foreseen to be homicide.

Manslaughter as defined in "Black's Dictionary" can be used as guidance and reads:

(t)he unlawful killing of another without malice, either express or implied. Such may be either voluntarily, upon sudden heat, or involuntarily, but in the commission of some unlawful act. The unlawful killing of a human without any deliberation, which may be involuntary, in the commission of a lawful act without due caution and circumspection. Wallace v U.S., 162 U.S. 466, 16 S. Ct. 859, 40 LEd. 1939.

Black's defines murder as :

"The unlawful killing of a human being by another with malice aforethought, either express of implied." State v Hutter, 145 Neb. 798, 18 N.W. 2d 203, 206.

Blacks' give us generally acceptable, universal, definitions but states define these terms in statutes and words may vary, however, the distinguishing element is intent.

Violence is defined in Black's as:

Unjust or unwarranted exercise of force, usually with the accompaniment of vehemence, outrage or fury. People v McIllvain, 65 Cal. App.2d 332, 130 P.2d 131, 134. . . .

The term used is 'homicidal violence' and it is not a legal term of art but rather a description of the injuries caused by another that were so severe that the reasonably foreseeable outcome would be death, as in, for example only, a grown man relentlessly hitting a baby's head with a hammer. IOW the degree of violence implies that the perp intended to inflict serious bodily harm or death. From the injuries one can infer intent.

If we combine the definitions, I suggest that we can conclude that law enforcement and the coroner believe that the injuries were inflicted to intentionally cause serious injury or death while the perp was enraged.

Of course, the next line of inquiry would be "but, what if the perp claims he was acting during a moment of passion (anger/rage/etc.) and therefore fall into the manslaughter category?" This issue would be decided by the trier of fact, whether judge or jury after a trial on the merits and after consideration of both the state's case and the defenses asserted.

 

[TeaTime]

Manner of death can be one of 5 things: homicide, suicide, accident, natural or undetermined.
Cause of death can be: blunt force trauma, stab wound, gunshot, poison, etc.

Yep, I think that is how it goes.

Homicide means someone caused the death.

Homicidal violence is that violence which is intended to kill. I would interpret this as being more than one fatality causing injury and no ability to determine which one killed her.

People have argued for 20 years over whether the head blow or the noose killed Jon Benet, both are capable of causing death. That she was the victim of a homicide has never been up for debate. Someone other than she caused those injuries.

I think it will be the same thing here, two of more possibilities.

JMHO

I read Amonet's post above, and reviewed my own and realized I transposed "manner and cause". I have corrected it here. Sorry for any confusion. Thank you Amonet for picking it up so quickly or the discussion could have run right off the rails over my error.

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

 

[Karinna]

Found this article relating to Zahra Baker's death in NC which was also determined "homicidal violence" and cause of death undetermined.
(quote)
An autopsy didn't show the N.C. medical examiner's office exactly how 10-year-old Zahra Baker died.

But evidence from the whole investigation convinced doctors that the child was killed and her death should be called a homicide, said N.C. chief medical examiner Deborah Radisch.

Last month, Radisch's office ruled that Zahra died as a result of "undetermined homicidal violence," a finding that's rarely called for in North Carolina and other states. She talked about the ruling for the first time in an interview this week, though Radisch would not discuss details of the Hickory girl's death or the investigation.

"Undetermined homicidal violence" is used in cases in which the physical autopsy can't determine a cause of death, Radisch said, "yet the circumstances surrounding the case and the finding of the body and the condition of the body would indicate the manner of death is a homicide."
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article9055037.html

 

[rsd1200]

I read "homicidal violence". Ie. She didn't die of natural causes.



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O/T I looked up the term and this article explained why the coroner chose the term for this 22 y/o victim:

"We know that a 22-year-old found in a shallow grave, unmarked, after a massive manhunt is not normal and certainly it's not suicide,” said Bartlett. “She was buried by someone else, so that leaves homicide." Along with not finding any injuries, the report states that a postmortem toxicology came back as negative and that Zuzu showed no signs of any kind of natural disease.
According to the report, it was a combination of these findings that led examiners to believe that 'homicidal violence' was the cause of death for Zuzu.

http://www.oaoa.com/news/crime_just...cle_afd53cb4-2774-11e7-a908-c7381b438185.html

It sort of made sense to me after finding this case. Sherin was not buried but she was definitely hidden.

 

[DLT88]

I would have thought it was the reverse of what was posted on the previous page, ie that homicidal violence would be the manner of death, and the cause of death would be the specific type of homicidal violence. In this case it appears to be undetermined, but that seems to imply multiple blunt force traumas, and any of those could have been the cause of death, or that there might have been blunt force trauma (or throwing of a child) combined with something like strangulation, and they just can't tell which particular injury actually caused 'death'? I would have thought that 'homicidal violence' on a child this age, combined with no definite cause of death would mean multiple broken bones, or possibly a skull injury. Maybe they just can't rule out something like strangulation combined with other injury(ies) they found, so it's sort of a technicality to not be able to declare cause of death?

That's just my conjecture, though.

Is it definite that the report won't be released to the public at the moment, or is that speculation based on it not yet being released?

I am curious as to how the report will guide the DA in deciding on further charges for WM and SM, and when those further charges will be made public. This will be a trial that I would like to follow, and I sincerely hope it will bring justice for sweet Sherin.

I also was thinking that MAYBE they found a large qty of her blood on Sherin's clothing that they found in the trash. Maybe it was large enough to indicate violence on a child that size. Just wondering.... I wish we could be told, but I have a feeling they don't want to further prejudice a jury maybe.