Found Deceased TX - Thomas Brown, 18, Hemphill County, 23 Nov 2016 #2

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I remember in the beginning when there was still a search going on that Klein posted he was trying to identify F250 pickup. Awhile later when I hadn’t heard anything I replied on his post and asked if the truck had been found. He replied that it had been a mistake and that truck belonged to Tucker. Later I found out that Tucker drove a SUV... I think a Toyota 4Runner. At the beginning of this conversation there are pics of a pickup but I couldn’t find what it was referring to. Do you know?

There has been discussion about a brown F250 pickup seen on video that particular morning. It is in the Tom Brown's Body somewhere, and I believe also in one of the podcasts. I can't remember which one. The podcaster said he watched the video of the traffic dozens of times if memory serves me. I do not think the brown pick up has been identified.
 
There is a dark colored F-250 captured on video from the Moody building on the morning of 11/24/2018 with a HCSO vehicle trailing behind. HOWEVER, there are a lot of F-250's in virtually every town driving the streets every day.
 

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There is a dark colored F-250 captured on video from the Moody building on the morning of 11/24/2018 with a HCSO vehicle trailing behind. HOWEVER, there are a lot of F-250's in virtually every town driving the streets every day.
That is not the pickup in the conversation at the beginning of this thread. Like I stated before... when Tom went missing Klein put out a post about the pickup in question but when I asked him about it he told me it turned out to be Tuckers. From what I understood Tucker drove an SUV.
I am not one of the groupies in Canadian that are trying to blame this on Lewis. I believe he messed up the investigation from the beginning but who would have thought at that time it would turn out like this. Still...labeling him a murderer and destroying his career and family was very heartless nonetheless. I know I have been on a one sided argument involving Canadian for way too long. I just want to know the truth. And because i no longer can provide links to some of my information I can no longer even discuss it on here... which is fine. If you have checked even OAG statements that were posted have been deleted and no longer available on the internet at all which I find highly unusual.
 
Maybe they are getting ready for a grand jury. Everyone here wants the answer to that question.

I am not wanting to blame Lewis for Tom's disappearance, but I think he totally brought his career down upon himself. I am very pro LE. I have immediate family in LE. But there is a way to handle an investigation and Lewis has not in any way been interested in following the FACTS to find Thomas. That is what concerns me in this case.

Canadian is a typical small town community with a lot of wealthy families who have a lot of pull. It will be interesting to see what comes from the grand jury when they meet. Hope you stay on with us.

Websleuths encourages discussing controversial issues. That is why I love coming on here. It allows me to hear ideas I would have never even conjured up in my mind and look at a case very differently. There are a lot of very smart people on websleuths. Even if you don't agree with most, your ideas are welcome.
 
Maybe they are getting ready for a grand jury. Everyone here wants the answer to that question.

I am not wanting to blame Lewis for Tom's disappearance, but I think he totally brought his career down upon himself. I am very pro LE. I have immediate family in LE. But there is a way to handle an investigation and Lewis has not in any way been interested in following the FACTS to find Thomas. That is what concerns me in this case.

Canadian is a typical small town community with a lot of wealthy families who have a lot of pull. It will be interesting to see what comes from the grand jury when they meet. Hope you stay on with us.

Websleuths encourages discussing controversial issues. That is why I love coming on here. It allows me to hear ideas I would have never even conjured up in my mind and look at a case very differently. There are a lot of very smart people on websleuths. Even if you don't agree with most, your ideas are welcome.
Thank you.... I really appreciate you saying that.
 
That doesn’t make sense to me. I believe the case was on the on the phone until it was removed and turned off. The phone was later placed to be found in a search organized by Klein and Klein was the only one who knew when and where that search was to take place. The phone was in pristine condition although it had been wiped and PM had the case. On the night the family was searching for Tom the Deputy/LE Went to PM house and here it was 3:00am in November and they all have a meeting in the front yard. LE was not invited into the house to have this conversation about their son. Sounds very strange to me.

I get that this could seem like odd behaviour, but this might help. You know when you lose your phone and you empty your purse out your bed, you still don’t find your phone? You begin to get that sinking panic feeling when you don’t find it so you quickly start searching other areas, like your car or parts of your house, with that sense of urgency ?

It completely “normal” to have erratic behaviour when you are suddenly faced with something so alarming as losing a person.

Going back to the phone example - you no longer need to keep looking in your purse since you already emptied it. You know it’s not there.

Same with being inside the house when you lose a person. You know the missing person is not inside the house. They are somewhere outside. So that panic guides you to be outside in hopes you catch a glimpse of something or hear something that will help in your search.
 
Regarding the phone, it seems that most agree the phone was planted. As far as Penny is concerned, she was unsure of the color of the phone being correct and her first impressions after the discovery were that this was not Tom’s phone. It doesn’t seem likely to plant evidence and then deny it’s his phone? I also tend to think that Penny did not plant the phone. And as for the charging case, well, maybe because her son was missing details like that felt insignificant ? IMHO the charging case is likely not important to the events of that night.

However a consideration is why was the phone planted at all and not tossed with his keys and wallet ?

In the end, his phone showed one thing (at least from what we know) that Tomas search history had a deleted record of visiting the suicide hotline website. How so? There are no details on that. Granted, here we aren’t in a position to access evidence, but I’ll put this out there.

If a search history is deleted. It can then be found in the DNS cache. But DNS is notoriously unreliable with both the websites and the time stamps of lookups. You can ping a website, for instance, and it can get added to your DNS cache as part of your search history without ever having visited the site. And the timing could also be off by hours.

If the phone was planted, it’s discovery led to the website, and a visit to the suicide hotline does help to encourage more people to believe the suicide scenario.

Even the AG seemed to agree that the phone was planted, so it may be worth considering that perhaps his search history was doctored too?

To build on that thought....

This may be a stretch, and it’s based on anecdotal information that could be inaccurate, but worthy of consideration.

Its important to remember that the luminal tests pointed to evidence of blood in the Durango being wiped away.

People committing suicide will not take time to wipe down their cars of their blood. Every time I consider the suicide narrative, the pieces never seem to fit.

As far as planting evidence is concerned, it’s pretty much agreed the phone is likely planted.

In an episode of True Crime Daily from three years ago, Tucker claims that the felt the backpack was planted because they had repeatedly searched that area “up and down.”

On the video of the 8 month anniversary of Tom’s disappearance, Lewis states that the Lake Marvin area was extensively searched, even with sonar. And no longer needed to be searched. Which is reflected in what Klein says LE told him.

Lewis’s credibility is questioned continually, but what if, in this instance, he’s right ?

Here’s what is known about Tom’s phone, backpack and remains. They were all found not far from a road, and not very well hidden. In some ways, it’s to be considered that all these pieces of evidence have been placed so that they, in fact, would eventually be found.

It is almost certain the phone was planted, so perhaps the backpack was as well ? ... and that leads to the next thought that perhaps even his remains were also left at Lake Marvin after that initial time he had gone missing ? It becomes plausible. IMO

How does that theory align with events of the night he disappeared? Instead of his body being dropped off at Lake Marvin that night and the car making its way back and past Alexander’s deli without him, it could offer another narrative - he was being bullied/ held by force in his car and was almost “permitted” to go home, driving the car past the Deli, but then there was a sudden shift in plans and and he was then made to take the car to the water treatment facility (or close by) where he was eventually harmed and removed from the car. Another car came. One person walked home and another took Tom and his belongings from the Durango. If memory serves there were two urinated spots by the Durango. Maybe Thomas and his things were removed to a site and each was planted later.

Just a thought.
 
Greetings again,

I discussed with a friend of mine who has significant LE experience concerning cell tower forensics.. which as it turned out he had a lot of experience with and is actually qualified enough to testify (and has) in court on the matter.

Basically, you can get a lot of information from it, noting that information in larger cities are going to be a lot more precise than in rural areas. Given the fact that Canadian is a pretty small town, when the state attorney general investigators said that they couldn’t put where TBs cell phone was turned off as accurately as Klein claimed, they might not have been lying about that. It is important to note, the more detailed information needs to be protected from deletion by a court order sooner rather than later, but archive data can still be decently revealing.
 
Greetings again,

I discussed with a friend of mine who has significant LE experience concerning cell tower forensics.. which as it turned out he had a lot of experience with and is actually qualified enough to testify (and has) in court on the matter.

Basically, you can get a lot of information from it, noting that information in larger cities are going to be a lot more precise than in rural areas. Given the fact that Canadian is a pretty small town, when the state attorney general investigators said that they couldn’t put where TBs cell phone was turned off as accurately as Klein claimed, they might not have been lying about that. It is important to note, the more detailed information needs to be protected from deletion by a court order sooner rather than later, but archive data can still be decently revealing.

Very good information Nehalem20. A potential problem could be that because the AG did not take control of the case until 2+ years after the fact, most pertinent information may have been lost (assuming that the HCSO did not get the necessary court orders and I cannot imagine that they did so). At some point there was very likely significant information including, email, texts, photos, approximate locations/movements, etc. However, as you point out, there could be important data within carrier archives depending on various carriers data retention policies. In any case, there is always the possibility that some of the "lost" data can be retrieved forensically. Just IMO, there are a few instances that cause me to think that investigators have forensically recovered some suspicious information and will use the Grand Jury session to validate the connection to some persons of interest.
 
Very good information Nehalem20. A potential problem could be that because the AG did not take control of the case until 2+ years after the fact, most pertinent information may have been lost (assuming that the HCSO did not get the necessary court orders and I cannot imagine that they did so). At some point there was very likely significant information including, email, texts, photos, approximate locations/movements, etc. However, as you point out, there could be important data within carrier archives depending on various carriers data retention policies. In any case, there is always the possibility that some of the "lost" data can be retrieved forensically. Just IMO, there are a few instances that cause me to think that investigators have forensically recovered some suspicious information and will use the Grand Jury session to validate the connection to some persons of interest.

Good points, Outwest and Nehalem20

I hope that the evidence they are collecting (and the public isn’t privy to yet) will culminate in finally bringing closure and justice to this case.

What concerns me is having this case go cold. I scratch my head when I think of the AGs office and their ‘neither here nor there’ determination on whether Tom committed suicide or whether this is this a criminal investigation. It’s disturbing that so many years on, even this basic decision has not been settled.

The Texas monthly podcast just seemed to add to this confusion by painting Penny in a more suspicious aura, and staging “suicide” as a more “real” scenario.

I find throwing shade on Tom and Penny in the media alarming - especially in light of the shameful lack of support the Meek/Brown family garnished from HCSO in the handling of this case.

Instead of real apologies and support coming out from LE to this family since his remains were found, there is just more spin designed to make the victim and his mother appear more suspect/weird/off.

What’s very off to me is why LE isn’t working more closely with this family? Wouldn’t that help the community heal and rebuild trust when they publicly show they are moving together in a united way? Why isn’t that happening ? SMH

I’m reminded that it is ALL of our cumulative efforts here, and on other sites, to dissect and discuss his case that keeps it alive. Being part of this very committed audience that is waiting for real answers is probably the single most helpful thing I can do in getting Justice for Tom.
 
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I hope that the evidence they are collecting (and the public isn’t privy to yet) will culminate in finally bringing closure and justice to this case.

What concerns me is having this case go cold. I scratch my head when I think of the AGs office and their ‘neither here nor there’ determination on whether Tom committed suicide or whether this is this a criminal investigation. It’s disturbing that so many years on, even this basic decision has not been settled.

The Texas monthly podcast just seemed to add to this confusion by painting Penny in a more suspicious aura, and staging “suicide” as a more “real” scenario.

I find throwing shade on Tom and Penny in the media alarming - especially in light of the shameful lack of support the Meek/Brown family garnished from HCSO in the handling of this case.

Instead of real apologies and support coming out from LE to this family since his remains were found, there is just more spin designed to make the victim and his mother appear more suspect/weird/off.

What’s very off to me is why LE isn’t working more closely with this family? Wouldn’t that help the community heal and rebuild trust when they publicly show they are moving together in a united way? Why isn’t that happening ? SMH

I’m reminded that it is ALL of our cumulative efforts here, and on other sites, to dissect and discuss his case that keeps it alive. Being part of this very committed audience that is waiting for real answers is probably the single most helpful thing I can do in getting Justice for Tom.

Balloon light, I cannot disagree with a single point that you make. Excellent observations IMO.

I too have wondered how any logical thought process could arrive at an opinion of ran-away or suicide in lieu of foul play. However, investigators must go on material proof. The discovery of the remains provided material proof that the "run-away" theories (that were posed by local law enforcement personnel) were unfounded. So, among the posed theories, that leaves suicide or homicide. There were reportedly no indications on or near the remains that indicated any cause of trauma such as blunt force, ligatures, knife marks, bullet holes, etc. Therefor, there is no known material evidence regarding the cause of death. Without evidence that points to a manner of death, a coroner did not (and should not) make any ruling. Even though there was no indications within the remains that pointed to the manner of death, investigators do consider many other factors and circumstances to guide the direction of their investigation. Good investigators follow suspicions that arise from those factors and circumstances, but they almost never publicly disclose their true suspicions.

Regarding the theory of homicide/foul play, there are a number of factors and circumstances that point in that direction. Some of which are the 25 caliber casing, the presence of blood within the Durango, the 12 mile distance between the Durango and location of the remains, the location that the Durango was abandoned hidden but near a residential area, the random scattering of belongings along Lake Marvin Road (indicating panic or haste), the cell phone plant, missing/lost/uncollected evidence. Also of concern is that local law enforcement appeared to consciously avoid any investigative efforts toward foul play; one would think that "foul play" would get at least equal investigative consideration.

Regarding the theory of suicide, there is basically one factor that could point in that direction; that being the reported internet search for a suicide prevention hotline site.

Bottom line, IMO the AG investigators have a good idea of what transpired during the early morning hours of November 24, 2016. What they are lacking is solid material evidence that corroborates other known factors and circumstances. Factors and circumstances only become relative when solid material evidence ties them all together. Motive / Means / Opportunity.
 
Just my thoughts ....... when looking for person(s) responsible, investigators focus on MOTIVE, MEANS, & OPPORTUNITY. Investigators look to determine from their investigation who had a MOTIVE to commit the crime (although in rare cases some crimes are simply random in nature and with no apparent motive). Whether or not a MOTIVE is clear, they must determine (and be able to show proof) from their investigation if any potential suspect had the MEANS (or capability) to commit the crime. They also must determine (and be able to show proof) from their investigation if any suspect had the OPPORTUNITY to commit the crime. Of the three criteria, Means and Opportunity can weight heavier and, depending on circumstances, possibly be sufficient to effect an arrest while the Motive may (or may not) be established later. If investigators can develop a reasonably solid case for MM&O, they can consider an individual to be a viable suspect and warrant further investigation and/or arrest based on other evidentiary circumstances. If they do not have sufficient evidence that points to particular persons of interest that is sufficient to develop and sustain MM&O to the level required for a jury trial, the investigation stalls until further evidence comes forth.

One of the great mysteries of this case has to do with MOTIVE. It is most helpful to investigators and the prosecution when the motive is clear. However, knowing the motive (the reason WHY) is not absolutely essential in order to charge and prosecute a crime (providing that prosecutors have good evidence pertaining to Means and Opportunity). Many homicide cases are successfully prosecuted even though the motive is unclear or not known. Homicide is serious and motive is a factor that is relevant in order to understand why the crime occurred as well as to potentially lead investigators toward those responsible. What circumstances could possibly be present that would drive somebody to cause the death of a popular high school student who had no criminal record whatsoever, no apparent involvement in “questionable” activities or with “questionable” people? The typical law abiding citizen is not mentally or morally capable of committing such heinous acts. Therefor it is difficult for most of us to fully realize that sometimes the factors that drive such behavior are comparatively trivial by most standards. The fact is that there are a minority of those individuals throughout all walks of society who are capable of such acts for little reason, even in small close knit towns.

I believe that if/when the true facts are known, the motive will be related to a rather trivial social circumstance that developed into an action more serious than was originally intended.
 
Who had a MOTIVE (or “reason”) to cause harm?
Who had the MEANS (or capability) to cause harm?
Who had the OPPORTUNITY to cause harm?

As pointed out earlier, knowing the motive is not necessarily required in order to successfully investigate and prosecute a case. But, knowing the motive in this case would be paramount in leading investigators toward the persons responsible. In the end, we may likely be surprised to learn that the main perpetrator(s) may have thus far been “unknown” to the case. Just quietly hiding in some dark corner.

IMO, it is obvious that persons other than the perpetrator(s) have detailed information regarding the disappearance:

Who had a motive to help cover the crime?
Who had the means to withhold, hide, alter, and/or destroy evidence?
Who had the opportunity to withhold, hide, alter, and/or destroy evidence?

Then, we also have the question: Who had the opportunity to destroy the phone but instead, planted it near the location where the search began? An action that runs totally counter to what you would expect from somebody that is involved. Maybe there is somebody that is involved in some manner but are morally torn between an emotional inner conflict of right and wrong.

Maybe parents, relatives or friends, or even public officials? Very possibly parents, for sure. We don’t know. Sure, there are a number of suspicious activities on the part of some. The case is riddled with unusual twists and circumstances many of which are very suspicious and concerning. However, many inept actions could be logically explained as gross incompetence or even arrogance. As a public that is concerned that the family of Tom Brown learn the true facts regarding his death, we simply do not have enough “inside” information to point toward any specific person(s). That is the job of the AG investigation team and that is why they are very tight-lipped regarding the investigation. I believe they do have some very relevant information that is not known publicly …...

With that being said, if I were a person who was withholding pertinent information and/or knowingly providing cover, I would absolutely be thinking about the potential felony penalties under the law that relate to obstruction or tampering with evidence. As long as no person has been charged and arrested, it is not too late to come forward and potentially minimize or even eliminate charges. Besides, it is simply the right thing to do. Anybody can make wrong decisions when involved in a painful, stressful and emotional situation. Those issues could be taken into account. Tampering with or withholding evidence and/or obstruction are simply not worth the risk of facing charges that could result in a prison sentence.
 
That doesn’t make sense to me. I believe the case was on the on the phone until it was removed and turned off. The phone was later placed to be found in a search organized by Klein and Klein was the only one who knew when and where that search was to take place. The phone was in pristine condition although it had been wiped and PM had the case. On the night the family was searching for Tom the Deputy/LE Went to PM house and here it was 3:00am in November and they all have a meeting in the front yard. LE was not invited into the house to have this conversation about their son. Sounds very strange to me.
This is days late, but in the interest of keeping the facts right....Klein was not the only people who knew where the search was going to be. LE knew. The fire dept knew before hand.

edit: I see after further reading, someone else corrected the OP.
 
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How do you know?

I know because I have a friend who paid him $20,000 to find out who beat her son to death at a pasture party full of high school kids. He did nada! After that I started looking into him and found out that most if not all that comes out of his mouth is not true. He makes the same statements in all his cases and even though he says he has found hundreds of missing kids I could not find even one. He has been sued many times though and different members of his family have had their names linked with accounts set up for the public to donate money into “finding missing children.” I personally have researched and found these documents myself. Even without all of that it isn’t hard to see what he is all about...all you have to do is pay attention to his news or podcasts, public statements and follow the case yourself. It becomes quite obvious what it is all about for him.
 
I know because I have a friend who paid him $20,000 to find out who beat her son to death at a pasture party full of high school kids. He did nada! After that I started looking into him and found out that most if not all that comes out of his mouth is not true. He makes the same statements in all his cases and even though he says he has found hundreds of missing kids I could not find even one. He has been sued many times though and different members of his family have had their names linked with accounts set up for the public to donate money into “finding missing children.” I personally have researched and found these documents myself. Even without all of that it isn’t hard to see what he is all about...all you have to do is pay attention to his news or podcasts, public statements and follow the case yourself. It becomes quite obvious what it is all about for him.

You must not have searched much. I found two within a minuet of starting a google search.

Meet the Private Investigator Who Helped Find Sabrina Allen

Texas City girl kidnapped by her mother in 2014 found in Madisonville, FBI says

Its obvious you don't like Klein, but I think its important not to spread mistruths and to keep this thread based on facts.
 
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