Found Deceased TX - Thomas Brown, 18, Hemphill County, 23 Nov 2016 #2

[artiyail]

^ Yes, PK's livestream was pretty intertesting and he covers a lot but there's also some bits he seems confused on. I was hoping there'd be an explanation for why PM had Tom's iPhone charging-case all along. PK claimed he spoke to several of Tom's friends and that the charging-case wasn't on the phone that night. He also claimed Tom had four chargers in his car - I think PK is confusing the charging cable which you would plug directly into the phone/charging case with the charging case itself. So his explanation didn't really answer this properly. PK also claimed that he had a friend in the NSA and that following the polygraphs that CM and PM took (for which they showed deception on a couple of questions), he sent them both to his friend at the NSA and they undertook a 2 hour interrogation which cleared them and explained why they showed deception on the previous polygraph.

/EDIT: To add, his claim that the charging-case wasn't on his phone that night contradicts the digital forensics findings in the OAG report (released before PK's talk in October 2021)

 

[OutWest]

^ Yes, PK's livestream was pretty intertesting and he covers a lot but there's also some bits he seems confused on. I was hoping there'd be an explanation for why PM had Tom's iPhone charging-case all along. PK claimed he spoke to several of Tom's friends and that the charging-case wasn't on the phone that night. He also claimed Tom had four chargers in his car - I think PK is confusing the charging cable which you would plug directly into the phone/charging case with the charging case itself. So his explanation didn't really answer this properly. PK also claimed that he had a friend in the NSA and that following the polygraphs that CM and PM took (for which they showed deception on a couple of questions), he sent them both to his friend at the NSA and they undertook a 2 hour interrogation which cleared them and explained why they showed deception on the previous polygraph.

/EDIT: To add, his claim that the charging-case wasn't on his phone that night contradicts the digital forensics findings in the OAG report (released before PK's talk in October 2021)

@artiyail, your comments cover some of the exact same concerns that I had after watching. IMO, he may have intentionally tried to create confusion between the vehicle charging cables and the case charger. His Luminol tests that did not follow instructions and his failure to follow up with a simple phenolphthalein field test and/or forensic lab tests to verify blood ..... yet he still strongly tries to defend his results. Bottom line ..... he needs to get his "facts" straight and communicate better with all LE parties.

Regardless of any confusion that PK might create, some of his actions (such as Lake Marvin Road search) have brought the case forward and exposed those investigators who had refused to consider ALL of the evidence and what that evidence points toward.

However, nothing that PK has said or done during his involvement with the case, changes the significant evidence that Tom was a victim of foul play. It doesn't change the fact that a family desperately needs to learn what happened that night. IMO, of course.

 

[artiyail]

^ absolutely. There's another thing I find quite interesting that I haven't really seen discussed and that's Tom's Facebook account. According to the OAG report, the account was deleted after his disappearance, when investigators asked Facebook they responded that it could only be done by someone that had the password to his account. The report claims PM said PK deleted it, and when OAG asked PK, he claimed he thought PM deleted it - this is strange that they seem to be blaming each other. If one of these did delete the account. it raises two questions: (1) how did either PK or PM have Tom's facebook password - did they have access to one of his devices that had the password auto-saved? (2) What was the reason they deleted it? - did Tom post something suicidal and they didn't want it to be seen by investigators? Or is there another reason? Surely OAG would have obtained a warrant/subpoena to get the IP address, device and date it was deleted! Obviously there's the possibility that someone else deleted it other than PM or PK.

 

[OutWest]

^ absolutely. There's another thing I find quite interesting that I haven't really seen discussed and that's Tom's Facebook account. According to the OAG report, the account was deleted after his disappearance, when investigators asked Facebook they responded that it could only be done by someone that had the password to his account. The report claims PM said PK deleted it, and when OAG asked PK, he claimed he thought PM deleted it - this is strange that they seem to be blaming each other. If one of these did delete the account. it raises two questions: (1) how did either PK or PM have Tom's facebook password - did they have access to one of his devices that had the password auto-saved? (2) What was the reason they deleted it? - did Tom post something suicidal and they didn't want it to be seen by investigators? Or is there another reason? Surely OAG would have obtained a warrant/subpoena to get the IP address, device and date it was deleted! Obviously there's the possibility that someone else deleted it other than PM or PK.

I haven't thought much about those accounts because I don't see how they could affect any outcome on the case. I don't see why they seem important to OAG. I don't know why the accounts were deleted but I don't think it was for any nefarious reason. It's a small town, most likely the reason was simply for privacy sake. A young boy was missing then all of a sudden you have half of Texas trying to access his FB posts. If it was my family member under those circumstances, I believe I may be inclined to delete the account as well .... a privacy thing. At that point in time, I doubt that they realized that a FB account could possibly be considered evidence at some future point.

 

[artiyail]

OutWest, as someone that's been married to a homicide detective (of over a decade and counting), I've had the privilege of reading various revisions of the homicide investigation protocol that the detectives in my husband's jurisdiction base their investigation tasks on. As should be obvious - social media now features a large chapter in the document and is extremely important in any missing person/homicide case and hence one of the first tasks they will look to do is acquire an appropriate subpoena for access to information from these accounts. Social media accounts are extremely important to detectives for multiple reasons: (1) they can supply a list of individuals that the victim was in recent communication with - this list could include additional individuals which family and friends don't know about and those that weren't necessarily stored on the victim's phone address book; (2) Private messages on accounts can yield scheduled meetings which could be significant and related to the homicide - for example, if Tom was scheduled to meet someone (who planned to murder him for whatever reason) after he allegedly pumped gas then this meeting could have been arranged via a Facebook private message, this person responsible for Tom's death, would no doubt look to erase this - and what better way than to delete Tom's FB account. (3) It could yield information as to whether suicide occurred - for example, the OAG report references Tom's actual Instagram account and makes a mention to two celebrity idols of Tom's that committed suicide - what it doesn't mention (IIRC) is that Tom's profile has the following quote from a wrestler on the main page (which anyone can see)

"I’m gonna die a very young death. But that’s fine, that’s cool, that’s not so bad. All my heroes are dead anyway so at least I’ll be in good company."

This is direct evidence of suicide like talk on one of Tom's social media profiles, so IF, and that's a big IF, Tom did commit suicide then IF someone were covering it up, they may have quickly deleted any Facebook post mentioning his plan to take his own life and later on the entire account to remove all traces.

It isn't necessarily the fact that his FB account was deleted that's suspicious or raises a red flag, it's that two different people are suggesting it's the other person.

 

[OutWest]

artiyail, those are all very good points that you make. I wasn't aware of the wrestler quote; I now see a potential reason that the account was deleted. Thanks.

 

[DocReader]

Very good info @8th Bob-White .

" Thursday, November 24, 2016, 12:23 AM - THOMAS BROWN’S iPhone loses power (the phone dies, it is not shut off). "
BBM This to me proves Tom did not have the charging case on his phone while he was driving around. Otherwise, it would have been fully charged and would not have lost power.
I have never felt the family was involved. I think Penny has answered the question about the lie detector questions. I am concerned since the test showed deception. That can be significant or not to me. No way the family is involved to me. If they were involved they would not have tried so hard to keep this case in the limelight. JMO

From the AG's report:

"The digital forensic evidence indicates that it is more likely than not the battery case was on THOMAS BROWN'S phone the night of his disappearance. The phone records show a "plug in"/charging event earlier in the evening while THOMAS BROWN was at his house. There is never an "unplug" event the rest of the evening suggesting that the "plug in" event was the result of the built-in battery charging case attached to the phone and not another type of charging source that would require an "unplug" event before relocating the phone. Further evidence to support this theory are that THOMAS BROWN'S friends stated he was religious about keeping his phone charged and that he almost always had his battery charging case on the phone."

[...]

"Phone records show his phone would have had a charging/"plug-in" event prior departing his home around 6:04 p.m. that evening. Because there is never an "unplug" event later that same evening, it would seem to indicate that BROWN turned his charging case on while at his house"​

 

[DocReader]

He didn't. T went with him initially to help the deputy find one of the friends Tom was last seen, at their home. They live in the country, off of a main road, and T helped the Deputy get to the house. T also didn't keep anyone from looking anywhere they wanted to.

I don't understand what is fishy about that? I get your trying to come up with 'what if' situations, but there is no evidence that supports that. No where in MSM has anyone suggested that T was anything but helpful that night.

From the AG's report:

• "The family of THOMAS BROWN has told numerous media sources and investigators that TUCKER BROWN rode around with GREGORY because GREGORY needed TUCKER BROWN to show him where SAIGE PENNINGTON, the ex-girlfriend of THOMAS BROWN, lived. Evidence shows that TUCKER BROWN called HCSO at 3:33 a.m. and requested to ride with a deputy, which is verified through phone records and dispatch logs.
• The family has also stated that about 15 minutes before the Durango pulled into the sewage area that GREGORY and TUCKER drove through the pavilion area and TUCKER noticed the gate to the sewage area was open.
• Video at the pavilion does not show any vehicles driving though the pavilion area from 3:45 am until the Durango presumptively pulls in past the gate at 5:56 a.m.
• GREGORY'S report also stated that TUCKER actively kept him from that area.
• A recovered iMessage from TUCKER BROWN'S iCloud account, at 5:47 a.m. from TUCKER TO PENNY MEEK states, "We drove out to Saige's, to the Y, and then to the lake. We still haven't found anything." Video confirms that TUCKER was dropped off at approximately 5:56 a.m."

 

[8th Bob-White]

MOO - Pyne Gregory's words aren't worth the paper they're written on. From his past history in another jurisdiction of pulling a gun on a lost pizza delivery driver to goofing off while on duty that led to the "discovery" of Tom's remains. I don't believe anything the man says. Hopefully he never holds a position in law enforcement again.

 

[OutWest]

From the AG's report:

"The digital forensic evidence indicates that it is more likely than not the battery case was on THOMAS BROWN'S phone the night of his disappearance. The phone records show a "plug in"/charging event earlier in the evening while THOMAS BROWN was at his house. There is never an "unplug" event the rest of the evening suggesting that the "plug in" event was the result of the built-in battery charging case attached to the phone and not another type of charging source that would require an "unplug" event before relocating the phone. Further evidence to support this theory are that THOMAS BROWN'S friends stated he was religious about keeping his phone charged and that he almost always had his battery charging case on the phone."

[...]

"Phone records show his phone would have had a charging/"plug-in" event prior departing his home around 6:04 p.m. that evening. Because there is never an "unplug" event later that same evening, it would seem to indicate that BROWN turned his charging case on while at his house"​

One of the questions that I have had regarding whether or not the case charger was attached is: If the high-capacity charge case was attached, why would the phone battery be completely discharged by 12:23 AM after less than 6 1/2 hours of operation? That would appear to indicate one of two possibilities: 1) that the case had a very low charge level when attached, or 2) the case charger was not attached (early 6s batteries were known to frequently hold a charge only a relatively short time as well as cause unexpected erratic phone operation on occasion).

 

[OutWest]

MOO - Pyne Gregory's words aren't worth the paper they're written on. From his past history in another jurisdiction of pulling a gun on a lost pizza delivery driver to goofing off while on duty that led to the "discovery" of Tom's remains. I don't believe anything the man says. Hopefully he never holds a position in law enforcement again.

Also .......

January 9, 2019: While looking for shed deer antlers, Deputy Pyne Gregory discovered the partial remains of Tom Brown.

April 3, 2019: Hemphill County Attorney Kyle Miller also sent a letter to the defense bar in Hemphill County stating that his office will no longer take cases recommended by Deputy Pyne Gregory. Miller added that he has previously refused several cases from Deputy Gregory because of "lack of sufficient probable cause and/or misapplication of the law."

May 2, 2019: Deputy Gregory fired.

 

[Nick217]

I’m still stuck on Kading’s lack of response to Skips question about whether they had evidence that CM wasn’t where he said he was (at home) that night. I feel like it definitely implied that they did have evidence.

Now following that trail, I can honestly only think of one reason why CM wouldn't have been at home. Feels like the key to this case to be honest.

Also Tom had a strict curfew that he had never once broken before and his actions seemed to indicate that he was following them that night. At 11:26 he leaves his friends and says he is going home, he stops to get gas a few minutes later. At this point theres about a half hour until his curfew. Not really enough time to meet up with someone or go anywhere, by the time he arrived he would have to leave. And if he was meeting up with a friend or whoever he almost definitely would've texted them, and we know he did not text anyone at this time. To me it seems the logical and by far the most likely conclusion was that his next move was that he went home. There’s not really any evidence that he went elsewhere nor did he seemingly have any motive to.

Now what happened at home I have no idea. A suicide is certainly a possibility. Perhaps it was an accident, an argument that got out of hand. Who knows.

My general point being:
1. Tom’s most likely and logical next move after getting gas would be to return home as it was almost his curfew and he always followed it.
2. There is now uncertainty regarding CM’s whereabouts for most of the night. Perhaps the OAG has evidence to back this up.
3. PM and CM both independently indicated deception on the question on whether they knew where Tom’s body was.
4. The phone was found in pristine condition the day of the search. PM would likely have been one of the few people who knew about the location of the search ahead of time.
5. PM’s polygraph indicated deception when asked if she had possessed the phone after his disappearance.
6. TM refused to take a polygraph

Now the counterpoint for me at least, when I hear Penny say she has no involvement in what happened, I believe her, I honestly do. But at the same time I have to acknowledge that by far the most likely scenario is that he returned home that night and something took place there.

Another poster mentioned the friend that was at home with Tucker the night of the disappearance. I would love to hear what he has to say.

 

[8th Bob-White]

I’m still stuck on Kading’s lack of response to Skips question about whether they had evidence that CM wasn’t where he said he was (at home) that night. I feel like it definitely implied that they did have evidence.

Now following that trail, I can honestly only think of one reason why CM wouldn't have been at home. Feels like the key to this case to be honest.

Also Tom had a strict curfew that he had never once broken before and his actions seemed to indicate that he was following them that night. At 11:26 he leaves his friends and says he is going home, he stops to get gas a few minutes later. At this point theres about a half hour until his curfew. Not really enough time to meet up with someone or go anywhere, by the time he arrived he would have to leave. And if he was meeting up with a friend or whoever he almost definitely would've texted them, and we know he did not text anyone at this time. To me it seems the logical and by far the most likely conclusion was that his next move was that he went home. There’s not really any evidence that he went elsewhere nor did he seemingly have any motive to.

Now what happened at home I have no idea. A suicide is certainly a possibility. Perhaps it was an accident, an argument that got out of hand. Who knows.

My general point being:
1. Tom’s most likely and logical next move after getting gas would be to return home as it was almost his curfew and he always followed it.
2. There is now uncertainty regarding CM’s whereabouts for most of the night. Perhaps the OAG has evidence to back this up.
3. PM and CM both independently indicated deception on the question on whether they knew where Tom’s body was.
4. The phone was found in pristine condition the day of the search. PM would likely have been one of the few people who knew about the location of the search ahead of time.
5. PM’s polygraph indicated deception when asked if she had possessed the phone after his disappearance.
6. TM refused to take a polygraph

Now the counterpoint for me at least, when I hear Penny say she has no involvement in what happened, I believe her, I honestly do. But at the same time I have to acknowledge that by far the most likely scenario is that he returned home that night and something took place there.

Another poster mentioned the friend that was at home with Tucker the night of the disappearance. I would love to hear what he has to say.

Yes, according to Tom Brown's Body, Chapter 2, Tucker's friend was there watching a movie and went with Tucker for the first hour or so to search. I've not seen anything in print or heard anything on video or podcast from the friend. It would be helpful to hear what the friend has to say about that night. Has anyone seen or heard anything from this witness regarding the night of Tom's disappearance? From Tom last pumping gas at 11:36 it would leave about 20 minutes or less until the texts & phone calls started from Penny & Tucker starting around midnight. <modsnip>

 

[Razz]

Also in Tom's Brown Body #2, PK was asking CJ (via phone?) where he'd been that night. He stated that he was in bed at 10pm. He was living at the coach's house during that time. It seems easy enough to check that alibi.

 

[Suzermom]

I don't think the timeline which is verified by the texts leaves much time available for a coverup by the family. Especially with a guest in the house, Travis, the friend of Tucker. I don't know if we have heard much from him, but if something was amiss in the house that night that doesn't match up with the family's story, it would be easy for that to come out from the friend. One thing that bothers me that I have heard and that the ID show last week made clear to me, was that we are supposed to believe that PM and or her family helping her, covered up Tom's suicide because PM was freaked out and couldn't handle the fact that her son committed suicide so she spends the night covering this up. In the show RK, near the end of the show, makes it a point to say that PM says NL in the beginning called Tom's death a suicide but RK says actually PM calls it a suicide first! In the beginning when Tom was first missing, when NL asks PM what she thinks happened to her son, I do believe I have heard her say that she did say "suicide" to him - to me this is totally normal for her to do this, with her family history and her fears after Tom not coming home, this seems totally normal for her but then she quickly backs off of this. <modsnip>

 

[Razz]

Also in Tom's Brown Body #2, PK was asking CJ (via phone?) where he'd been that night. He stated that he was in bed at 10pm. He was living at the coach's house during that time. It seems easy enough to check that alibi.

Sorry, this was in TB's Body #4

 

[OutWest]

I’m still stuck on Kading’s lack of response to Skips question about whether they had evidence that CM wasn’t where he said he was (at home) that night. I feel like it definitely implied that they did have evidence.

Now following that trail, I can honestly only think of one reason why CM wouldn't have been at home. Feels like the key to this case to be honest.

Also Tom had a strict curfew that he had never once broken before and his actions seemed to indicate that he was following them that night. At 11:26 he leaves his friends and says he is going home, he stops to get gas a few minutes later. At this point theres about a half hour until his curfew. Not really enough time to meet up with someone or go anywhere, by the time he arrived he would have to leave. And if he was meeting up with a friend or whoever he almost definitely would've texted them, and we know he did not text anyone at this time. To me it seems the logical and by far the most likely conclusion was that his next move was that he went home. There’s not really any evidence that he went elsewhere nor did he seemingly have any motive to.

Now what happened at home I have no idea. A suicide is certainly a possibility. Perhaps it was an accident, an argument that got out of hand. Who knows.

My general point being:
1. Tom’s most likely and logical next move after getting gas would be to return home as it was almost his curfew and he always followed it.
2. There is now uncertainty regarding CM’s whereabouts for most of the night. Perhaps the OAG has evidence to back this up.
3. PM and CM both independently indicated deception on the question on whether they knew where Tom’s body was.
4. The phone was found in pristine condition the day of the search. PM would likely have been one of the few people who knew about the location of the search ahead of time.
5. PM’s polygraph indicated deception when asked if she had possessed the phone after his disappearance.
6. TM refused to take a polygraph

Now the counterpoint for me at least, when I hear Penny say she has no involvement in what happened, I believe her, I honestly do. But at the same time I have to acknowledge that by far the most likely scenario is that he returned home that night and something took place there.

Another poster mentioned the friend that was at home with Tucker the night of the disappearance. I would love to hear what he has to say.

Nick217 .... Very good post and excellent job in laying out the logic. I think that line of thought is the primary theory that is being considered by OAG investigators. At least it appears so at this point.

Just my thoughts .....

I realize that OAG has much more evidence and information than is available to the general public; therefor they have more pieces to the puzzle. I sincerely hope that the available evidence is being properly interpreted. That being said, I think back to the two cases in Texas of Michael Morton and Greg Kelly. In both of those cases investigators became so focused on a “storyline” or primary theory that they ignored other important evidence that was available to them during the investigations. The result was that those two men spent years in prison before each finally being exonerated by that “overlooked” evidence. Thankfully, it was efforts by an OAG special prosecutor who helped exonerate one; it was an investigation on the part of a Texas Ranger that helped exonerate the other.

I too have considered that line of logic but there are some other factors that I simply cannot wrap my mind around or make fit the “happened at home theory/family involved theory”.

1. Behaviors over a period of time as well as Motive, Means, & Opportunity. It would take a complex monumentally planned effort in a short timeframe to successfully pull off such a task as coordinating such a coverup while a number of others were present or nearby during the initial search. The behavior of the Brown/Meek family does not appear to reflect that they are involved in such a manner, IMO. The family has obviously paid well into six-figures $$$ for Klein’s services while continuing to be available for interviews and statements as well as numerous other efforts to learn more information on a consistent basis for the past 5 or so years. The determination and emotion in PM’s voice tells a story of a genuinely distraught mother. IMO, a person would have to be callous to not see that. I don’t believe the “actor” theory for a moment. Some may say that behavioral reaction does not matter to an investigation …. oh, but it does.

I don’t recall any mention of the friend (TR) who was at the house that night. He would be a direct witness to actions and responses by all present.

The family has been a strong proponent for a special investigative Grand Jury, even to the point of recently conducting a demonstration in front of the Gray County courthouse. (I don’t believe that I would be trying to intensify the investigation if I were guilty.)

When the phone was found during the October 14, 2017 search, PM stated numerous times that she did not believe the phone that was found belonged to Tom. The phone that was found was reported to be Rose Gold colored. Tom’s phone was Gold colored. (at the time, Apple produced Rose Gold (pinkish) and Gold as two of the color options.) Over a period of months and until the FBI verified the phone as Tom’s, PM repeatedly publicly stated that the phone could not be Tom’s phone because Tom’s phone was Gold colored.

Several have commented that the October 14, 2017 search area was known only to a few (LE, VFD, Klein staff). In actuality, virtually everybody in Canadian knew where the search would take place. Word spreads fast in a small town. Lake Marvin Road had been at the center of discussions for months. Tom’s backpack had been found in January 2017 along Lake Marvin Road. It is where everybody in Canadian goes to hike, fish, picnic, party, etc. It is the local recreational “migration route” of sorts. In addition, the roughly 125 volunteers were instructed prior to October 14 to meet at the beginning of Lake Marvin Road. The location for the search was not a secret.

2. For approximately a 2 year period LE “local” investigators appeared to focus their primary theory toward run-away. Their theory was that Tom was living incognito in another city and was periodically communicating with family and friends. Activity on a number of cell phones belonging to family and friends was being monitored. However, during this period other evidence was apparently not being taken into consideration. Evidence such as items found scattered along Lake Marvin Road as well as the spent cartridge casing found in the vehicle. Then, on January 9, 2019 Tom’s remains were found at a point on Lake Marvin Road approximately 10 miles from where the Durango was abandoned. The “run-away” theory was dead. Investigators had spent most of 2 years following the wrong trail while apparently discounting other evidence.

Polygraphs are used as a tool to develop “talking points” for the follow-up interrogation. Results are based on machine responses to a series of questions that are compared to a series of control questions. It is my understanding that they can provide misleading results and therefor cannot be admitted as evidence in court. While a polygraph may indicate an irregular response to a question, the machine cannot determine WHY that response occurred. Sometimes the response is due to guilt or deception but other times the response may be due to other factors not related to guilt. Results are interpretive. IMO, I am not sure what to make of the polygraph results for PM, CM, or NL. Each would have a lot of emotion and apprehension involved.

3. Information regarding the skull facial bone fractures were only recently released. It obviously would take a significant amount of force to inflict that damage. Possibly an impact with some instrument or forceful kicks to the area. Then, there is the spent 25 caliber casing found in the Durango and the small holster found with other items that were scattered along Lake Marvin Road. Evidence of that nature, IMO dramatically lowers the likelihood that members of this particular family were involved.

I hope portions of this post do not come across as anti-LE. I am strongly pro-LE. I like nothing more than to see a thief, murderer or rapist brought to justice. I have had friends in law enforcement over the years and have a relative who served years as a Texas Ranger before retiring. From my early years, I had some limited experience before following an opportunity in another career path.

IMO, the Tom Brown case was compromised long before the OAG became involved. OAG was tasked with an uphill challenge to leave no so stone unturned. As OAG investigator Smyth reportedly stated, to make something logical of an illogical situation. Things are sometimes not as they appear. I just hope that with all evidence available thusfar, OAG is able to begin turning the illogical into logical but I am becoming concerned that the case is becoming cold.

 

[OutWest]

I don't think the timeline which is verified by the texts leaves much time available for a coverup by the family. Especially with a guest in the house, Travis, the friend of Tucker. I don't know if we have heard much from him, but if something was amiss in the house that night that doesn't match up with the family's story, it would be easy for that to come out from the friend. One thing that bothers me that I have heard and that the ID show last week made clear to me, was that we are supposed to believe that PM and or her family helping her, covered up Tom's suicide because PM was freaked out and couldn't handle the fact that her son committed suicide so she spends the night covering this up. In the show RK, near the end of the show, makes it a point to say that PM says NL in the beginning called Tom's death a suicide but RK says actually PM calls it a suicide first! In the beginning when Tom was first missing, when NL asks PM what she thinks happened to her son, I do believe I have heard her say that she did say "suicide" to him - to me this is totally normal for her to do this, with her family history and her fears after Tom not coming home, this seems totally normal for her but then she quickly backs off of this. What is not normal and makes no sense to me , IMO, is for me to believe PM and family would spend the night covering up Tom's suicide, because PM can't handle anyone finding out he committed suicide but then when asked by NL "what do you think what happened" she immediately says "suicide" - I would think that would be the last thing she would say. Would a mother who has just covered up her son's suicide because she cannot handle anyone finding out he committed suicide, then when asked by the sheriff - immediately say "suicide" ? This doesnt make sense, IMO. And also if we are talking abt people failing lie detector tests, like PM and CM, I think we have to also mention NL failing of his test and PK did not fail his. IMO this needs to also be mentioned.

Agree. During the initial searches through the night they had all but eliminated vehicle accident (of which was their initial thoughts when Tom missed curfew). By the next morning, with vehicle accident ruled out, the next thought may be suicide. This was Canadian Texas .... if they were in Chicago or Houston the next thought may have been foul play but foul play does not immediately come to thought in quiet small town Canadian. So, with emotions and fear running high along with some family history, PM naturally would think suicide might be a possibility.

As you point out, if PM was currently covering a suicide then WHY would she respond to NL that suicide came to mind? She would not.

IMO, far too much has been made of PM's very early response the NL's question.

 

[Nick217]

The issue with motive is certainly a difficult one in this case. I don’t see the family as having any possible motive to be honest. The only thing I can think of is that perhaps someone in the family found out about the diaper thing and beat him up and it went too far. But I don’t think that is a particularly likely scenario at all. Don’t think the family would lie to cover up a suicide, especially not for so long, the only thing I could see them covering up for is an accident

Looking at the only other group that I believe would have opportunity to commit this crime would be law enforcement. They would have the ability to intercept him when he was driving and there was talk one of them having seen him at the gas station. And I think their actions the morning of the crime as well as the months following it are certainly shady, which the family hasn't been at all. I do however also see no possible motive at all why they would hurt Tom. People brought up his previous run in with NL but I think that is a very big stretch that NL would try to murder him over an insignificant meeting that happened over a year ago.

He didn't mention to anyone any other plans of going elsewhere or make any plans over text/phone calls and had to be back for a curfew. Don’t really see how anyone else besides these two groups had opportunity to commit this crime as the drive to his home from the gas station was likely a few minutes at most.

The location of CM that night is crucial.

Either
1. If they can prove he was at home all night there is really no way that a coverup could've been pulled off. Which would leave me to believe LE is the likely main suspect.

or

2. If the OAG indeed does have evidence that he was not home when the family said he was and he never claimed to be out searching, then I don't see how he wasn't involved.

I just don't see any reasonable other scenarios. A group of boys his age?? He would need to be like secretly meeting up with them and breaking curfew for the first time ever without mentioning this to any of his other friends or texting them to coordinate this plan. Why would it be a weird secret that he didn't want any electronic record of if he was just meeting friends? I feel like it would also have to be multiple people cause they would likely have driven their own car there and then someone would need to go drive the Durango. Also absolutely no motive here. It also seems that it is very unlikely that they have opportunity.

It seems like no one has any motive. Don’t think we will have any idea what the motive of this crime was until we know who committed it. Then it may become more clear.

 

[OutWest]

The issue with motive is certainly a difficult one in this case. I don’t see the family as having any possible motive to be honest. The only thing I can think of is that perhaps someone in the family found out about the diaper thing and beat him up and it went too far. But I don’t think that is a particularly likely scenario at all. Don’t think the family would lie to cover up a suicide, especially not for so long, the only thing I could see them covering up for is an accident

Looking at the only other group that I believe would have opportunity to commit this crime would be law enforcement. They would have the ability to intercept him when he was driving and there was talk one of them having seen him at the gas station. And I think their actions the morning of the crime as well as the months following it are certainly shady, which the family hasn't been at all. I do however also see no possible motive at all why they would hurt Tom. People brought up his previous run in with NL but I think that is a very big stretch that NL would try to murder him over an insignificant meeting that happened over a year ago.

He didn't mention to anyone any other plans of going elsewhere or make any plans over text/phone calls and had to be back for a curfew. Don’t really see how anyone else besides these two groups had opportunity to commit this crime as the drive to his home from the gas station was likely a few minutes at most.

The location of CM that night is crucial.

Either
1. If they can prove he was at home all night there is really no way that a coverup could've been pulled off. Which would leave me to believe LE is the likely main suspect.

or

2. If the OAG indeed does have evidence that he was not home when the family said he was and he never claimed to be out searching, then I don't see how he wasn't involved.

I just don't see any reasonable other scenarios. A group of boys his age?? He would need to be like secretly meeting up with them and breaking curfew for the first time ever without mentioning this to any of his other friends or texting them to coordinate this plan. Why would it be a weird secret that he didn't want any electronic record of if he was just meeting friends? I feel like it would also have to be multiple people cause they would likely have driven their own car there and then someone would need to go drive the Durango. Also absolutely no motive here. It also seems that it is very unlikely that they have opportunity.

It seems like no one has any motive. Don’t think we will have any idea what the motive of this crime was until we know who committed it. Then it may become more clear.

Definitely a perplexing case. Somewhere out there are answers; somebody is holding the connecting pieces. You are correct .... the Motive is most elusive. IMO, if ever learned, the motive will be something most would think was minor and irrelevant.