TX - Uvalde; Robb Elementary, 19 children and 3 adults killed, shooter dead, 24 MAY 2022 #2

[WichitaFalls]

I'm trying to reconcile the fact that we live in a country where children ages 9-11 and their precious teachers can be brutally gunned down in school and no one comes to their rescue until it was too late for 21 of them. That is haunting to me.

 

[AnnieOakley]

But then it is teachers' task to intervene in order to help a pupil.
If parents don't want to cooperate and they neglect their duty - inform social services.

I've seen a number of comments like this, so I'm just jumping off of yours...

I'm curious what people mean by "inform social services"? CPS? What would they be able to do with this person? I do agree that offering counseling is important to students who are struggling, and I work with them to get that. Assuming someone was able to get SR an appointment (I have students who WANT counseling and have been on a waitlist for over 3 months), does he seem like an individual who would participate in counseling? We can't force anyone to participate. Also, what therapy would be helpful for an individual like this? Most of my students who do manage to get therapy are seen at most once per week, but more often 2x per month. Were there warning signs earlier in SR's life that would indicate he was headed down this destructive path? Obviously he had very concerning behavior in recent years, but I feel interventions like counseling would have had potential to help years ago, not necessarily recently (unless he actually wanted help). I hope my thoughts/questions make sense...

Again, not asking Dotta specifically- this post is like a number of others I have seen, and been wondering about...

 

[Arkay]

I'm trying to reconcile the fact that we live in a country where children ages 9-11 and their precious teachers can be brutally gunned down in school and no one comes to their rescue until it was too late for 21 of them. That is haunting to me.

I so agree, @WichitaFalls

The mind boggles and the heart breaks.

These horrific tragedies do happen, but the circumstances here allowed and enabled SR to continue on his murderous path.

If we can't bear it, I shudder to think of the families, and then the teachers, the students who witnessed their friends die, the police who WANTED to intervene, and so on.

Right now I'm trying to imagine the grief that the 911 operators are enduring.
Those in a helping profession, who heard the last pleading words of little children, and then no more. Even though they apparently did their jobs, how haunted they must be right now.

God help all of those people.

 

[WingsOverTX]

But then it is teachers' task to intervene in order to help a pupil.
If parents don't want to cooperate and they neglect their duty - inform social services.

Putting SR into foster care was more likely to compound his problems than to help, IMO.

Teachers should not be tasked with acting in loco parentis, other than referral to the school counselor or child protective services, as appropriate. They have enough to do!

Intervention earlier in this killer's life might have helped but once his murder ideation began around the 8th grade (I think), it was unlikely to be successful without major changes in his environment. And major mental health evaluation and care.

He attempted to murder his grandmother, who I suspect tried more than anyone to help him. That speaks clearly about his state of mind.

It's very tragic. Maybe in the end, he couldn't have been saved from himself.

I truly wish those dear children he murdered could have been saved.

MOO

 

[Sulamith]

I am sure there are a number of good educational videos online regarding what to do in the event of an active shooter incident, but after a quick look online I watched the video, below, made by the City of Houston called "Run.Hide.Fight: Surviving an Active Shooter Event." It was funded with a grant from the Department of Homeland Security.

I asked the moderator if I could post it as a refresh for those who are interested regarding active shooter incident training for the public, and it was approved. In addition to the approval, she suggested that I add the link, below, to the Department of Homeland Security's active shooter booklet, which also provides some good information on what to do to protect yourself in an active shooter incident.

Warning - there are some disturbing images at the beginning of the video, and briefly at the end of the video when LE arrive.

https://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/active_shooter_booklet.pdf

Very good, informative video. Too bad people in the USA need to know this. I live in rural Texas.

 

[Arkay]

Putting SR into foster care was more likely to compound his problems than to help, IMO.

Teachers should not be tasked with acting in loco parentis, other than referral to the school counselor or child protective services, as appropriate. They have enough to do!

Intervention earlier in this killer's life might have helped but once his murder ideation began around the 8th grade (I think), it was unlikely to be successful without major changes in his environment. And major mental health evaluation and care.

He attempted to murder his grandmother, who I suspect tried more than anyone to help him. That speaks clearly about his state of mind.

It's very tragic. Maybe in the end, he couldn't have been saved from himself.

I truly wish those dear children he murdered could have been saved.

MOO

I don't know the laws in Texas, but in NY state we are considered to be acting in loco parentis during the school day.

Before we get anywhere near being the only adult in a room full of minors, we have to have a Bachelor's Degree, get our Master's Degree within a certain time frame, be fingerprinted to assure that we have no criminal history, pass several teacher exams, take additional education classes, take child abuse awareness classes and student teach.

However if a student is habitually absent, the parent may lose custody due to educational neglect. In this case apparently the grandparents would not get legal custody either, since they couldn't get him to go to school. The grandfather's felony record---I don't know if that would be a factor or not.

It is not the teacher's call to contact what here is labeled ACS. That would be the call of a supervisor or guidance counselor.

Therefore, SR would be remanded to state care in NY. In a state facility he would be searched and watched over, particularly if he was diagnosed with any mental health issues. That would be standard because it's assumed that a child in state custody is already enduring many stressors.

However, once a child has turned 18, all bets are off. No one has to have custody of him and he doesn't have to go to school. Unfortunately he'd already turned 18.

I agree with you, intervention had to be enforced much earlier in his life.

 

[x_files]

I think it was established that there were no LE present when he enterd the school grounds. The school shared a school resource officer/LE with the high school and he wasn't on this campus at the time the shooter entered the schoolgrounds.

They shared one SRO? ok, now this makes sense why he wasn't there. I wish there was one per school.

 

[Knox]

so now we need a way to help parents when they see RED FLAGS!
Trust me I am looking for answers too/ I would like to PREVENT mass shootings instead of investigating after the fact. I want SOLUTIONS!

As do I (want solutions)!! Monday morning quarterbacking is the most frustrating part of this issue. I was simply replying to a post.

I think @white rabbit put out a good post, but the reality is - not all kids are created equal when it comes to parenting and getting their needs met. That's a rabbit hole in itself and a whole other topic.

The kid bought the guns/ammo legally (afaik). What's the solution, I'd like to hear your thoughts?

 

[Dotta]

Putting SR into foster care was more likely to compound his problems than to help, IMO.

Teachers should not be tasked with acting in loco parentis, other than referral to the school counselor or child protective services, as appropriate. They have enough to do!

Intervention earlier in this killer's life might have helped but once his murder ideation began around the 8th grade (I think), it was unlikely to be successful without major changes in his environment. And major mental health evaluation and care.

He attempted to murder his grandmother, who I suspect tried more than anyone to help him. That speaks clearly about his state of mind.

It's very tragic. Maybe in the end, he couldn't have been saved from himself.

I truly wish those dear children he murdered could have been saved.

MOO

You are right

I wrote from the perspective of Primary School (ages 7-15), where I work.

I'm sure "red flags" appeared then - and it was the right time to intervene.

 

[Knox]

In this case, I think the demographics of the area may have played a part in not raising an alarm that SR "dropped out" of school. It's not unusual in rural areas for 16-year-olds to drop out of school to help work on the farm or otherwise help support the family.

And like so many things, I also think COVID may have played a part in not judiciously monitoring his attendance status-- and his behavior for that matter. I'm personally aware that many students chose not to return to the classroom after in-person classes resumed, and schools were required to accommodate their decision.

Also, it seems many of his arguments with his mother included the issue of SR not attending school and/or graduating. MOO

Why was he living with his grandparents? Do we know?

 

[x_files]

As do I (want solutions)!! Monday morning quarterbacking is the most frustrating part of this issue. I was simply replying to a post.

I think @white rabbit put out a good post, but the reality is - not all kids are created equal when it comes to parenting and getting their needs met. That's a rabbit hole in itself and a whole other topic.

The kid bought the guns/ammo legally (afaik). What's the solution, I'd like to hear your thoughts?

I wish I knew the answers, I think it's going to have to be tackled on many levels, and many we cannot discuss further here, including mental health. not selling AR-15s to 18-year-olds, raising the age to 21, and NOT selling huge amounts of high-capacity ammo all at once to one buyer, extensive background checks including sealed juvie records, schools need more safety measures, two SROs at every school, better fences, and metal detectors. Also, ways to report threats, animal torture, etc to authorities and actually have LE/FBI take it seriously because sm won't. a National Database of kids who tortured animals, not to be sealed.
Because we know that SR committed this crime, there's no mystery here...so what's to solve? What's left to sleuth?
I like to seek solutions to prevent mass shootings.

 

[Seattle1]

Putting SR into foster care was more likely to compound his problems than to help, IMO.

Teachers should not be tasked with acting in loco parentis, other than referral to the school counselor or child protective services, as appropriate. They have enough to do!

Intervention earlier in this killer's life might have helped but once his murder ideation began around the 8th grade (I think), it was unlikely to be successful without major changes in his environment. And major mental health evaluation and care.

He attempted to murder his grandmother, who I suspect tried more than anyone to help him. That speaks clearly about his state of mind.

It's very tragic. Maybe in the end, he couldn't have been saved from himself.

I truly wish those dear children he murdered could have been saved.

MOO

IMO, reports that SR had no known mental issues are more or less saying that he had not been treated, and not that mental issues did not exist.

Also, I don't think we can dismiss that SR may have even had a genetic condition. In an interview I recently posted upthread with the grandparents' long-time neighbor (coincidentally, the father of Robb Elementary's principal), he provided that SR's sister previously lived with the grandparents but she proved to be more than the grandparents could handle. Of course, TOS prevents us from exploring the issue further.

 

[Friday Fan]

According to the Express-News and Uvalde CISD website
Uvalde CISD PD has the Chief and 5 officers under him.

Total students 4,108 Uvalde CISD
HS has about 1250 students

Campuses:

• Dalton Early Childhood Center (PK–1)
• Robb Elementary School (Grades 2-4)
• Flores Elementary (Grades 5-6)
• Batesville School (PK-6)
• Uvalde Dual Language Academy (PK-6)
• Morales Junior High (Grade 7-8)
• Crossroads Academy (Grades 9-12)
• Uvalde Early College HS (Grades 9-12)
• Uvalde High School (Grades 9–12)

 

[Dotta]

I've seen a number of comments like this, so I'm just jumping off of yours...

I'm curious what people mean by "inform social services"? CPS? What would they be able to do with this person? I do agree that offering counseling is important to students who are struggling, and I work with them to get that. Assuming someone was able to get SR an appointment (I have students who WANT counseling and have been on a waitlist for over 3 months), does he seem like an individual who would participate in counseling? We can't force anyone to participate. Also, what therapy would be helpful for an individual like this? Most of my students who do manage to get therapy are seen at most once per week, but more often 2x per month. Were there warning signs earlier in SR's life that would indicate he was headed down this destructive path? Obviously he had very concerning behavior in recent years, but I feel interventions like counseling would have had potential to help years ago, not necessarily recently (unless he actually wanted help). I hope my thoughts/questions make sense...

Again, not asking Dotta specifically- this post is like a number of others I have seen, and been wondering about...

Well, as I work in Primary School, I can answer about this age period:

- logopedic therapy: lisp, stutter (he was bullied b/c of them)
- checking learning difficulties/help to overcome them (he dropped out of school later on)
- checking home environment (mother/drugs)

Constant monitoring by School Counsellor.

 

[Seattle1]

Why was he living with his grandparents? Do we know?

Yes, the timeline provides he'd been living with his grandparents since around March after SP and his mother were not getting along. The grandfather has also done several interviews including a walk-through of their home where his wife, SP's grandmother, was shot, after LE released his home back to him. Several links in thread #1.

ETA: add link

Texas gunman left home after fight with mom about Wi-Fi, mother's boyfriend says

“He was kind of a weird one. I never got along with him. I never socialized with him. He doesn’t talk to nobody,” Juan Alvarez said.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Shamrock1]

Here's the thing: For the sake of this discussion we can recognize what the Supreme Court ruled: Even with that ruling however, what does that mean when lives are in danger, be it at a school, a mall, or a supermarket and there is an active shooter? I would imagine in the job description of police officers there is protocol which lays out exactly what a police officer is to do in those situations- it is to go to the area where people's lives are in danger from an active shooter and to take the shooter out so as to save lives- if that were not the case, why call the police at all? I don't expect a police officer to say "I have no legal obligation to save lives so- the heck with it- "

That legal ruling may prevent citizens from being successful in a court of law, but in the real world a police officer has a duty, an obligation to save lives by taking out people who put others in harms way.

Those 19 police officers who stood around and did nothing to save those children, should no longer have a job and neither should the Chief of Police (or whatever his title is).

I totally agree. But so what? They get fired. They’ll be hired by another town, or re-hired when the attention wanes. We see this all the time with police, albeit not in the school shooting context. The answer isn’t more training (this particular police force had an active shooter drill a few months ago) or more funds (40% of the town’s budget went to police).

 

[Dawookie]

Here's the thing: For the sake of this discussion we can recognize what the Supreme Court ruled: Even with that ruling however, what does that mean when lives are in danger, be it at a school, a mall, or a supermarket and there is an active shooter? I would imagine in the job description of police officers there is protocol which lays out exactly what a police officer is to do in those situations- it is to go to the area where people's lives are in danger from an active shooter and to take the shooter out so as to save lives- if that were not the case, why call the police at all? I don't expect a police officer to say "I have no legal obligation to save lives so- the heck with it- "

That legal ruling may prevent citizens from being successful in a court of law, but in the real world a police officer has a duty, an obligation to save lives by taking out people who put others in harms way.

Those 19 police officers who stood around and did nothing to save those children, should no longer have a job and neither should the Chief of Police (or whatever his title is).

Those 19 officers from various agencies were told to stand down by the school police chief, they weren't just standing around for the hell of it. He was the on scene commander making all of the decisions. It was the BORTAC officers that finally had enough and led the other officers against his orders.

 

[Dawookie]

I totally agree. But so what? They get fired. They’ll be hired by another town, or re-hired when the attention wanes. We see this all the time with police, albeit not in the school shooting context. The answer isn’t more training (this particular police force had an active shooter drill a few months ago) or more funds (40% of the town’s budget went to police).

The school police chief obviously needed more training on what to do. He's the one that ordered the officers from various agencies not to go in because he thought it was just a barricaded suspect in an empty room. There were so many different LE agencies on scene, someone else should have taken control and given the order much earlier rather that BORTAC finally deciding they had enough and leading every one else in on their own

 

[Shamrock1]

I disagree that the propped open door was the FIRST failing of the school. The fence was. It should have considerably delayed his attempts to get himself and the ammo into the school ground, and he should have been shot by LE (or anyone) as he attempted to enter.

The fence didn’t fail. School fences (typically appx 4ft) are designed to keep students contained, not protect them from shooters. Many schools are plagued by mold, rodents, and even asbestos, and more than 40% lack air conditioning. A prison-like fence is beyond the budget of most schools.

TV6 Investigates: Local schools with no air conditioning change schedule

Student in six different districts across Iowa and Illinois are sitting inside classrooms that have no air conditioning, and with the unusually high temperatures schools are forced to cut their hours.

www.kwqc.com

https://www.healthyschoolbuildings.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/health-effect-mold-in-schools-Santilli-Articl.pdf

 

[Seattle1]

'Fathers Smashed Windows and Pulled Kids Out': First Responders Recount Horror of Uvalde Shooting

A firefighter, an EMT and a police officer tell PEOPLE about the horrific scene during and after Tuesday's mass shooting at an elementary school in Uvalde, Texas

people.com

Within an hour, about 500 first responders had arrived at the scene from as far away as San Antonio, about 85 miles away.

"I was stabilizing a little girl, she was so tiny," says an EMT who wanted to be identified only by his first name, Rey, who arrived at the scene 20 minutes after the shooting. "There was blood everywhere. She had been shot in the chest and the shoulder. We were trying to stop the bleeding. I looked at her and I was like 'She's just a baby. Who would shoot a baby?'"

Even as the ambulance pulled away from the school, frantic parents tried to peer into the vehicle's windows to see who the patient was. "Everyone wanted to see," says Rey. "They wanted to make sure it wasn't their kid."

"A father came up to me and asked in Spanish if it was a boy or a girl inside [the ambulance]," says Rey. "He was looking for his son, and when I told him that it was a girl, he just ran to another ambulance."

[..]

As many parents had tearful reunions with their children, other parents felt their desperation turn to dread.

"People told me that they had been to the two places where the children were being reunited with their parents, and their kids weren't there," says King. "Unfortunately, they knew exactly what that meant."

Initially, there were hundreds of people at a local civic center, awaiting reunification with their children. As the afternoon went on, the number dwindled to dozens, and then to a handful.

"The faces of the parents changed as it went on," says the officer. "They looked ... beaten down. It was sinking in that there was a reason why their son or daughter wasn't there, and they didn't know what to do next."

At Uvalde Memorial Hospital, parents sat in the waiting room, awaiting word. "Two women were sobbing, clinging to each other," says Rey. "The energy in that waiting room was so dark, watching people have the worst day of their entire lives."
_____________________________
^^bbm

Although I believe three students still remain hospitalized, we shouldn't forget the EMTs, first responders, and ambulances that tended to the injured and transported them to the hospitals. "She's just a baby. Who would shoot a baby?" ... says it all.