Identified! TX - Williamson Co., 'Orange Socks' WhtFem 33UFTX, 15-30, off I-35, Oct'79 - Debra Jackson

[Two for the road]

This is exciting news in one way but not in another...

We were possibly a month away from knowing who she was, but now like sheep flats doe, DDP may identify her but LE won't release her case if it was anyone else but HLL that killed her. How exciting and frustrating at the same time!

 

[MelmothTheLost]

So are they implying they may have found her perp's DNA as well? Could that also be why they're holding for discussion because DDP doesn't want to participate in the criminal aspect of it? I bet they never thought they'd be sucked in by accident/chance, if that's the case.

It would be great if this was the killer's DNA but it's just as likely it came from one of the people who attended the crime scene afterwards. Back in 1979 there was no DNA for forensic purposes so no thought could have been given to avoiding contamination. If the DNA was found on her socks, the simplest explanation is that it came from the SOCO who lifted her by her ankles when she was put into the body bag.

 

[Alleykins]

It would be great if this was the killer's DNA but it's just as likely it came from one of the people who attended the crime scene afterwards. Back in 1979 there was no DNA for forensic purposes so no thought could have been given to avoiding contamination. If the DNA was found on her socks, the simplest explanation is that it came from the SOCO who lifted her by her ankles when she was put into the body bag.

Preserving a crime scene for evidence and preventing contamination predates the use of DNA as evidence.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Preserving a crime scene for evidence and preventing contamination predates the use of DNA as evidence.

Yes, of course it does, but in any age LE can really only try not to contaminate evidence it knows about. Before about 1900 the police did not know about the value of fingerprints as evidence so couldn't have given any thought to preserving them. Who knows if there is something we don't yet know about which is being compromised as evidence because of the way things are handled and stored today.

 

[cvaldez1975]

if they seem certain that this could be the DNA of her killer, then im pretty sure I know where they got it from.

 

[Nancy Drew RN]

Yes, of course it does, but in any age LE can really only try not to contaminate evidence it knows about. Before about 1900 the police did not know about the value of fingerprints as evidence so couldn't have given any thought to preserving them. Who knows if there is something we don't yet know about which is being compromised as evidence because of the way things are handled and stored today.

This is probably just me being overly hopeful that they've found a clue to her killer, but it would be impressive if touch DNA were still viable after all these years--we seem to have some trouble at times getting good DNA even from obvious sources after decades have passed. My hope is that blood or semen was found on whatever it is that they're using, perhaps on something that was previously believed to only be her own fluids. As far as identifying her killer, it may or may not be enough to do GEDMatch, but it will hopefully be enough to exclude suspects or narrow down a field of existing criminals. I've never thought that Henry Lee Lucas was likely to have killed her.

 

[MandiH82]

I'm going to go way out on a limb here and suggest that maybe the name of Joanie or Judy that Lucas gave the police was correct. I think OS may possibly be Judith Elwell who went missing in July of 1967 in Oklahoma City, OK. It's an hour away from Henryetta, OK, where one of the matchbooks was from. I understand that she was 5 at the time she went missing, however, that doesn't necessarily mean she was killed when she disappeared. It also shouldn't exclude her from a potential match due to the twelve year difference between Judith's disappearance and OS discovery. I wish the pm photos were clearer.

Missing Person Case

Just got through the whole thread and this post from a little while ago stuck out to me but was never really discussed. Interesting resemblances between Judith Elwell’s childhood photo (Missing Person Case) — particularly the forehead height and hairline, nose width and nostril shape, that slight lift on the right side of her upper lip, eye shape and distance apart. It would be cool to see an age progression on the little girl to see how closely it resembled the morgue shot.

Theory would be she was abducted at 5 and maybe sold into prostitution at a viable age. A hard knock life could definitely age you (given this theory would make her 17 when she was killed yet she looks a bit more weathered than your typical 17-year-old at death) and be the reason for her lack of overall care. Being abducted at that age and then enduring God knows what, could definitely put you on the path to transience. Something about her name actually being the one she gave “Judy” was something I thought could be a possibility. Is there anything on the little girl (Judith Elwell) that could be matched to orange socks? I didn’t see any notes about dental or DNA being stored for Judith.

(How do you repost the photos so they show?)

 

[daisy6441]

I was looking at the Doe Project fb page and they said something about getting DNA for Orange Socks but it was being held back for some reason.

 

[Two for the road]

I was looking at the Doe Project fb page and they said something about getting DNA for Orange Socks but it was being held back for some reason.

It is being held because they found a second DNA profile, DDP isn't sure where to go from there because they don't do criminal investigations. So it's in LE hands. I'm sure they'll still process the info and then identity will be held up like SFJD.

 

[4SAM]

A second DNA profile? Meaning her and her killer? Or possibly 2 killers?

 

[Alleykins]

A second DNA profile? Meaning her and her killer? Or possibly 2 killers?

We're guessing OS's and the perp, but I don't think DDP has clarified this point yet, have they?

 

[dotr]

Just got through the whole thread and this post from a little while ago stuck out to me but was never really discussed. Interesting resemblances between Judith Elwell’s childhood photo (Missing Person Case) — particularly the forehead height and hairline, nose width and nostril shape, that slight lift on the right side of her upper lip, eye shape and distance apart. It would be cool to see an age progression on the little girl to see how closely it resembled the morgue shot.

Theory would be she was abducted at 5 and maybe sold into prostitution at a viable age. A hard knock life could definitely age you (given this theory would make her 17 when she was killed yet she looks a bit more weathered than your typical 17-year-old at death) and be the reason for her lack of overall care. Being abducted at that age and then enduring God knows what, could definitely put you on the path to transience. Something about her name actually being the one she gave “Judy” was something I thought could be a possibility. Is there anything on the little girl (Judith Elwell) that could be matched to orange socks? I didn’t see any notes about dental or DNA being stored for Judith.

(How do you repost the photos so they show?)

Highlight pic.by pressing on left mouse clicker and simultaneously right click mouse and press copy.

Missing
Missing Person / NamUs #MP14031 Judith Ann Elwell, Female, White / Caucasian

 

[carbuff]

Hmmm... so does this mean all of the DNA rule outs are nullified?

I was wondering about that too. If the two samples were mixed together, undetected, the comparison sample certainly might have contained parts of both. The statements are pretty vague about exactly what was found.

 

[Lewie]

I was wondering about that too. If the two samples were mixed together, undetected, the comparison sample certainly might have contained parts of both. The statements are pretty vague about exactly what was found.

I’m glad I’m not the only one! I don’t know enough about the purification and QC process to know if that could happen/go undetected. I know DDP has to do a fresh extraction, so it’s theoretically possible the NamUs sample was pure, but it definitely brings up questions.

 

[carbuff]

I’m glad I’m not the only one! I don’t know enough about the purification and QC process to know if that could happen/go undetected. I know DDP has to do a fresh extraction, so it’s theoretically possible the NamUs sample was pure, but it definitely brings up questions.

There are techniques for dealing with mixed samples but I don't know whether standard tests take that into account.

 

[Lewie]

There are techniques for dealing with mixed samples but I don't know whether standard tests take that into account.

Even if they do nowadays, perhaps that wasn’t the case when her sample was originally processed. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say there’s probably quite a few cases that remain unsolved because of weird snags like this (potential) one.

 

[carbuff]

Even if they do nowadays, perhaps that wasn’t the case when her sample was originally processed. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say there’s probably quite a few cases that remain unsolved because of weird snags like this (potential) one.

Yes. I suspect you're right. There are a number of glitches (maternal chimerism, twin chimerism, organ transplants...) that can cause weirdness in a person's DNA. Most identification systems have chosen to deal with the ambiguities by simply ignoring them, which I suppose is about all they can do.

 

[carbuff]

If the DNA is off of the socks, it could be anyone's. Did they ever say if the socks were newly bought for Halloween? Because if they were her socks previously, they could have been washed in a community washer and folded by someone else. There would be DNA picked up from wherever she was, even from people who handled the pair in a store.

It's probably from this item: "The only other evidence was determined to be a makeshift sanitary napkin, which was labeled among the evidence as a bloody towel." (33UFTX)

 

[Nancy Drew RN]

It's probably from this item: "The only other evidence was determined to be a makeshift sanitary napkin, which was labeled among the evidence as a bloody towel." (33UFTX)

I wonder if it was actually used by her killer to clean up or to keep her from leaking fluids in transit?

 

[carbuff]

I wonder if it was actually used by her killer to clean up or to keep her from leaking fluids in transit?

That's a good question.

I just hope it's got lots and lots of information there waiting for them...