UK - 4 children died in house fire, 27YO woman arrested, Sutton, 16 Dec 2021

[bobbymkii]

What are those entry level grades named ,what are the required admittances ?
I am having an issue because verbiage is different ,and I tend to rely on what I think I know.

as someone from the UK who regularly comments on American trials I know that translating between British and American English can be a lot harder than it looks.

My best attempt would be:
Nursery = kindergarten
Reception = 1st Grade Elementary

Based on the boys ages I would say Leyton and Logan were in Nursery. Bryson and Kyson were in Reception.

JMO

 

[Skigh]

What are those entry level grades named ,what are the required admittances ?
I am having an issue because verbiage is different ,and I tend to rely on what I think I know.

All children enter reception in the September after their 4 th birthday.
Children get government funding to go to nursery when they are 3.

 

[Tower]

All children enter reception in the September after their 4 th birthday.
Children get government funding to go to nursery when they are 3.

In my state and the states where my cousins and nephews live in the US (4 total), children do get free school at 4, can qualify for free school at 3 (with a developmental delay or financial need), but it is not mandatory to attend every day until 6.

Meaning, a mother could take the children out without getting charged with neglect or truancy or needing to prove she is homeschooling. So teachers would not immediately become concerned or have the authority to call protective services based solely on the fact that they missed 3 weeks of school.

It is common here for parents I work with (often with mental and/or addiction struggles) to have their 3-year-olds miss school for extended periods. In ideal cases, we work with the family to improve routines so the kids can get to school, but until 6, there’s nothing punitive that can be done.

My own opinion/experience

 

[Tortoise]

[...]

Ms Lumsdon said: “Evidence from the paternal family and the children’s schools indicates that Ms Rose was considered to be a good mother and kept her children clean and tidy. However, there were concerns.”

Sally Johnson, the children’s paternal great-grandmother, said Ms Rose had stopped letting her go any further into the house than the front room and would tell her to go to a local shop to use the toilet.


The children’s paternal grandmother said Ms Rose was “cagey” about letting her into the house so she had not visited for a year before the fire, the court heard.

[...]

The boys had not been to school for three months before the fire, but teachers did not think this was unusual because of Covid, the court heard.


Ms Rose went to the school on the day of the fire to collect some Christmas presents for the children. She went to Sainsbury’s with the children at 2pm.

[...]

Ms Lumsdon said: “CCTV shows that Ms Rose went to Sainsbury’s again, this time alone, at around 7pm. The items purchased are non-essential items.”

MSN

 

[Dotta]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1836122285448495136

 

[CocktailQueen]

Most children start full time school in reception, on the September after their fourth birthday. But, compulsory school age is the term after they turn five, so if they turn five in April, May, June,July or August, then they actually don’t have to start school until the following year.

Also, am I the only one thinking maybe she started the fire on purpose? My opinion only and obviously, impossible to prove. Either way, it was a horrendous end for those poor boys.

 

[Kittypoo]

Most children start full time school in reception, on the September after their fourth birthday. But, compulsory school age is the term after they turn five, so if they turn five in April, May, June,July or August, then they actually don’t have to start school until the following year.

Also, am I the only one thinking maybe she started the fire on purpose? My opinion only and obviously, impossible to prove. Either way, it was a horrendous end for those poor boys.

You’re not the only one. I wondered the same as saw mentioned there were tea lights cigarettes and jos sticks as well as rubbish knee deep. Why on earth would you need to go to Sainsbury’s and be missing for several hours anyway get a delivery
I’m sure it wouldn’t be impossible for a fire investigator to prove

 

[Tortoise]

I'm not seeing her name in the court listings since Tuesday.

Her trial was in court 6 but they used it for a different hearing this morning.

I can't find any new media reports either.

 

[bobbymkii]

I'm not seeing her name in the court listings since Tuesday.

Her trial was in court 6 but they used it for a different hearing this morning.

I can't find any new media reports either.

Courtserve has it listed today. Looks like there aren't any journalists in there reporting daily on the case.

Court 6 - sitting at 10:30 am

[td]

HIS HONOUR JUDGE LUCRAFT KC, RECORDER OF LONDON​

[/td]​

For Trial

CP Case

ROSE Deveca

01MP1312023

CPS

PART HEARD

 

[Tortoise]

Courtserve has it listed today. Looks like there aren't any journalists in there reporting daily on the case.

Court 6 - sitting at 10:30 am

[td]
HIS HONOUR JUDGE LUCRAFT KC, RECORDER OF LONDON​

[/td]​

For Trial

CP Case

ROSE Deveca

01MP1312023

CPS

PART HEARD

Well I don't know then, because some other guy was in court 6 for a hearing this morning until 11am.

 

[Flamingo11]

I'm not seeing her name in the court listings since Tuesday.

Her trial was in court 6 but they used it for a different hearing this morning.

I can't find any new media reports either.

Old Bailey Insight has her listed in court 6 at 10.30am today

 

[Hananas]

In reply to some of the earlier posts, can give a bit of teacher perspective as a teacher who lives in the same town where the boys lived (but works in another london borough)

Nursery is 3-4 years, reception 4-5 years. Not all primary schools have a nursery but the one that I believe the older boys attended does, so the younger children may well have attended there for nursery too.

Many 3 and 4 year olds do attend nursery, whether school based or a private nursery, but not all. She very likely would have been entitled to 15 hour funding for the younger boys, if working she may have been entitled to full time funding of 30 hours. So there is a high chance they were in some kind of child care at least part time.

As mentioned by a previous poster, school is not compulsory until the term after a child turns 5. Despite this, most children do still start reception in the September after they turn 4 (unless they are not planning to be in the mainstream school system at all eg home schooled/medical needs/waiting on tribunal for a special school place)
The main impact of children being under compulsory school age is that the borough don’t have legal standing to enforce attendance or to chase up on it heavily. This in turn means that our assigned EWO (education welfare officer) doesn’t track their attendance or meet with parents when there are attendance concerns. This doesn’t mean that we as teachers don’t do this though. I am an early years lead and I absolutely track the attendance of the children within my phase, a child who had prior concerns, children’s services involvement etc would definitely flag up for me if I hadn’t seen them for more than a couple of days. It sounds like these boys had an assigned social worker so as a safeguarding lead or at the very least children’s services involvement so I would be communicating attendance concerns with them as necessary.
This is not the same as the family of a 4 year old child with otherwise all but perfect attendance and no other concerns taking a family holiday

All that to say, if their school is anything like mine (and I believe it is) these young boys would have been on everyone’s radar

JMO

[long time member, first time poster ]

 

[bobbymkii]

I just don't get it. This is not a direct quote from the article, but the general attitude of social services seems to be 'We had concerns about the living conditions, but we closed the case because Ms Rose would not co-operate. Oh and because COVID.'

Surely her non-co-operation is the biggest red flag of all?!

JMO

MSN

 

[Tortoise]

"On Monday, Judge Mark Lucraft KC told jurors that the defendant was attending the trial by video-link from home “on medical advice”."

more to read at link about pre-incident visits by social workers

‘Alarm bells’ raised by authorities before boys killed in house fire, court told

www.standard.co.uk

 

[Tortoise]

The defence tactic seems to be her poor mental health? Although she has persisted in saying she fixed up a babysitter for her trip to the shops, so I don't know how that fits.

Perhaps there are some additional charges.

 

[Skigh]

"On Monday, Judge Mark Lucraft KC told jurors that the defendant was attending the trial by video-link from home “on medical advice”."

more to read at link about pre-incident visits by social workers

‘Alarm bells’ raised by authorities before boys killed in house fire, court told

www.standard.co.uk

I have never before heard of someone attending a trial from home.

 

[bobbymkii]

Yep. I'm definitely seeing a pattern. She will not let anyone else into that house so they can see how bad it is, so god knows how she thought she could convince anyone she left them with this 'Jade' character. JMO

On Tuesday, jurors heard a statement from paternal great-grandmother Sally Johnson in which she recalled several occasions when she phoned the house only to be told by Kyson that their mother was at the “pop shop”.
She said: “I offered to look after the boys if she was struggling. I think she was finding it difficult to raise the boys in that house. Often she would ask me to look after the boys for an hour or two and then she would not pick them up until much later in the evening.

Mother left four boys home alone ‘several’ times before fatal fire, court told

Old Bailey jurors have heard a statement from the boys’ paternal great-grandmother Sally Johnson.

www.standard.co.uk

 

[bobbymkii]

Deveca's police interviews played in court today. More details about 'Jade' and it's quite something!

'None of my friends live in Sutton, now I've got friends in Sutton, but I didn't and I didn't have anyone to call to say come and sit with them for a minute. She described 'Jade' as being 'black, my build, my height, olivey skin, quite dark.'

Rose said Jade's mother is Italian and her father is Irish and said she did not remember she was wearing on the day of the fire. When asked if she trusted Jade she said: 'To be honest I don't trust anyone, I've got a lot of reasons why I don't have full trust in anyone.

'Anyone can switch up on you at any time and I've learned that lesson many times. It's not about trust per se - it's just, she never had a problem with the kids and the kids never had a problem with her, they'd happily play with her.'

She added: 'She's a bit of a flirt, most of my friends are the same.' She said she was worried Jade had left the children to go and have sex.

She said: 'I literally said, if she's gone to f-k someone I'm going to be mad ' The officer asked if Jade had done that before and she replied: 'She's not left my kids to go f--k someone before but she's left me to go f-k someone before.
'Like we've been on a day out and she'll just go.' She said her relationship with Jade had previously been sexual but they were later just friends.

Rose said she had not been in contact with Jade until she saw her in Mitcham a few days before the fire when she gave her keys to her house. She said they had previously been in contact on Snapchat and Taimi, an LGBT dating app.

She said she did not know Jade's surname. 'It begins with an "O", I can't pronounce or spell it, I don't know I couldn't really tell you most people's surnames.'

Asked how she now feels about Jade she said: 'Well I don't know her side of the story but like I strongly dislike her cause, I don't know what happened, I don't know how it started. 'I've got questions in my head but I'm more angry at myself then her cause they're my kids.

'I'm angry they're gone, I'm angry I chose to go to the shop, I'm angry I didn't let one of them come with me, I'm angry I can't answer anyone's questions.' In a second police interview Rose said that Jade was white but didn't 'look English' and looked tanned.

Mum who left four kids to die in house fire 'made them use bucket as toilet'

Mum Deveca Rose is accused of the manslaughter of her two sets of twins who died at their home in Sutton after she allegedly left them alone to go to a supermarket

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[bobbymkii]

Oh dear God:

When asked about the state her house was found in with rubbish on the floor she said: 'You guys might see that as struggling, I see it as organised chaos.

Mum who left four kids to die in house fire 'made them use bucket as toilet'

Mum Deveca Rose is accused of the manslaughter of her two sets of twins who died at their home in Sutton after she allegedly left them alone to go to a supermarket

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[Tortoise]

What’s on at the Old Bailey on Sept 30

Cases of interest at the Old Bailey on Monday Court 2 at 10am trial of Dajour Jones accused of the murder of 20-year-old Jamie Gilbey, who disappeared. His body was found in South Norwood, South Lo…

old-bailey.com

Court 6 Not sitting trial of Deveca Rose