UK - Alesha MacPhail, 6, raped & murdered, Ardbeg, Isle of Bute, Scotland, 2 Jul 2018 -*arrest* #3

[Hhp28]

[

They may be witnesses for defence, but not necessarily support the accused. And yes, they would be compelled to provide this information in court if called by either prosecution or defence. It would be completely wrong to withhold information, don't you think? Everyone is entitled to a fair trial, it is the law, whether you believe the accused to be g or not.

I was just unsure about how it worked. I would never advocate not giving someone a fair trial. Particularly in a case like this, it would be great grounds for appeal.

 

[beseeingyou]

His parents asked her not to as they were about to start a custody battle - if she is friends with his parents I would imagine she wouldn’t report it and assume they would sort it.

She had also just lost her husband so i imagine she wouldn't be in the right frame of mind to go reporting a neighbourly domestic and all the implications of that fallout.

 

[Owlpellet]

Although the source of DNA on wrists and face etc could not be shown I'd say it's more likely from restraint...which is why I feel its damning

Yes- I think it’s likely to be skin cells. And unlikely to have come from secondary transfer of semen as there would also have been traces from a third person present as well. They talked about dna over areas of bruising I think.

 

[Nikynoo]

Fairly sure she can apply to have such information removed

Yes, she can. She has the right to be 'forgotten' under the DPA

 

[beseeingyou]

Although the source of DNA on wrists and face etc could not be shown I'd say it's more likely from restraint...which is why I feel its damning

Wrists and ankles could easily be moving the body.

 

[LittleMystery]

Well all
This case has highlighted to me is criminals need not worry about social media as the keystone cops haven’t a clue. I’m actually furious as a taxpayer that they are so incompetent. A case as important as this and they don’t have the resources.

In terms of resources, some things are out of police hands with regards to what information they can obtain.

A complete breakdown of Instagram usage won’t be stored on the device making it harder for a tech to recover it. A lot of it will be stored at the social networks end. In Instagram’s case they only retain certain data for short periods of time. So in terms of deleted messages or ephemeral content like Instagram stories, once they are gone they are likely gone for good.

I’ve attached Instagram’s policy on data retention for reference.

That being said, I agree in that there is better understanding of social media required.

 

[Ciana]

Whaaaaat? They’ve finished? We might have a guilty verdict by tomorrow morning at this rate

No, not that soon, alas. There may be legal arguments re the direction of the closing addresses of the two sides and then when the addresses have been delivered, the judge will make his summing up to the jury. We have a wee while to go yet.

 

[Liming]

How will that work re the legal arguments? I'm on a learning curve here.

 

[Owlpellet]

I think all that’s left is the Judge’s summing up tomorrow before the jurors retire to discuss the evidence.

 

[angeldust]

Who were his defence witnesses? They two woman who provided no evidence of anything other than a hearsay comment and alleged shouting in 2017 ? If he gets found not proven because they had an arguement I think i'll l commit a murder lol

In terms of resources, some things are out of police hands with regards to what information they can obtain.

A complete breakdown of Instagram usage won’t be stored on the device making it harder for a tech to recover it. A lot of it will be stored at the social networks end. In Instagram’s case they only retain certain data for short periods of time. So in terms of deleted messages or ephemeral content like Instagram stories, once they are gone they are likely gone for good.

I’ve attached Instagram’s policy on data retention for reference.

That being said, I agree in that there is better understanding of social media required.

Thank you for the info I still think the young team could do better sourcing info the police really need to use young people when investigating these things, they are more street wise and would be a great asset they know ways round everything

 

[mrazda71]

In terms of resources, some things are out of police hands with regards to what information they can obtain.

A complete breakdown of Instagram usage won’t be stored on the device making it harder for a tech to recover it. A lot of it will be stored at the social networks end. In Instagram’s case they only retain certain data for short periods of time. So in terms of deleted messages or ephemeral content like Instagram stories, once they are gone they are likely gone for good.

I’ve attached Instagram’s policy on data retention for reference.

That being said, I agree in that there is better understanding of social media required.

I was just about to write a similar post regarding this but you've put it far more eloquently than I could.

I don't think the lack of Instagram evidence is down to the officers 'incompetence' at all.

He had the mobile device of the Accused only - no mention of a laptop ... mobile websites work differently to full sites.

Also as @LittleMystery was saying - the police can have all the resources and expertise in the word but if the social media owners won't or can't help then it's hard luck.

Also ... in all honesty, I believe he's guilty and the lack of Instagram evidence doesn't help him in any way.

 

[Ciana]

So a 16 year old boy and 17 year old girl managed to have an affair without telling their friends?

I find that hard to believe.

Under "normal" circumstances, I would agree. However, this case is somewhat different. If what we have heard of R is true, then perhaps there was a fear element. He was also a drug dealer on this small island and I am assuming that he was involved with some unpleasant types. Not victim-shaming, just expressing an opinion of how this may have panned out.

 

[Liming]

Under "normal" circumstances, I would agree. However, this case is somewhat different. If what we have heard of R is true, then perhaps there was a fear element. He was also a drug dealer on this small island and I am assuming that he was involved with some unpleasant types. Not victim-shaming, just expressing an opinion of how this may have panned out.

As far we know know he sold a bit of Weed to folks who knew him, the rest is hear say.

 

[Alyce]

Conversely, if the prosecution didn't know that this was going to be an issue before the start of the trial, then they had no time to find witnesses or otherwise build a case that this affair was just a figment of the boy's fevered imagination.

Duty of disclosure is expected from both sides, Prosecution and Defence, so Prosecution should have had advance notice.

 

[Kasmeer]

Guilty for me, there's too many elements to the overall picture for any other verdict (I'm nervous about a "not proven" but can't see a majority going that way). The DNA and fibre evidence require a lot of mental gymnastics to explain away, while the defence witnesses seemed to be there purely to drag RM and TM through the mud and make them look unreliable, which does nothing at all to discredit the CCTV timings, the DNA, the fibres, etc etc.

Put it this way, in order for him to be found not guilty, the jury have to believe the accused is the unluckiest lad ever, just happened to go out for cannabis in the middle of the night, to end up having a secret rendezvous with a young woman who's so attached to her boyfriend that she's incredibly jealous of boyfriend's daughter (yet happy to have an affair on the side), he then completely innocently came home, had a shower, went out clutching some clothes, came home without said clothes, went out and came home again, all in the small hours of the night, for completely innocent reasons. And this is the same night his nefarious affair partner has decided to abduct and kill Alesha.

Meanwhile, clothes he'd lost in the sea several days earlier, resulting in walking home naked through a whole village who never saw him (and he was seen wearing similar that night) wash back up and coincidentally match fibres found on Alesha's body. A knife matching his mothers' kitchen block is found on the same beach. And somehow his affair partner has taken a condom full of his DNA and used it to frame him, while somehow getting fibres matching his clothes (which he'd lost days before meeting her) too... yet not getting any of her own DNA into the scene.

Probably missed a few details in there but yeah, I can't buy it. My ONE question mark is over how Alesha came to be out with him, as I do find it hard to understand how that could happen, but then we've never learned the layout of the flat, for all we know the door of her room could be right next to a stone staircase which doesn't creak! I don't think that's enough doubt for a "not proven" though; the CCTV timings, fibres and especially all that DNA tells too much of a story.

 

[bronzepurple]

Under "normal" circumstances, I would agree. However, this case is somewhat different. If what we have heard of R is true, then perhaps there was a fear element. He was also a drug dealer on this small island and I am assuming that he was involved with some unpleasant types. Not victim-shaming, just expressing an opinion of how this may have panned out.

But I don't think the accused seem to be afraid of anything/anyone...he was so bold and self assured on the stand, and also the first time he spoke to police he was described as confident and not flustered. I think he would have bragged about it to some of his friends if he had been sleeping with Toni....however at the same time I have to admit it did kind of have a potential ring of truth to it....I'm not sure whether they were sleeping together in 2017 or not... undecided.

 

[Alyce]

I have a great albeit begrudging respect for the defence guy. He's done an amazing job considering the little he's got to work with and the farcical special defence.

He's got it spot on about the "cyber expert". I do wonder if he's truly an expert or it's just a police staff member who's gone on a course who they now call an expert. His knowledge was abysmal going by the bits we got to hear.

Have to say, if I ever needed a QC ( hopefully never ) I'd go for the Defence man not the Prosecution

 

[JosieJo]

Guilty for me, there's too many elements to the overall picture for any other verdict (I'm nervous about a "not proven" but can't see a majority going that way). The DNA and fibre evidence require a lot of mental gymnastics to explain away, while the defence witnesses seemed to be there purely to drag RM and TM through the mud and make them look unreliable, which does nothing at all to discredit the CCTV timings, the DNA, the fibres, etc etc.

Put it this way, in order for him to be found not guilty, the jury have to believe the accused is the unluckiest lad ever, just happened to go out for cannabis in the middle of the night, to end up having a secret rendezvous with a young woman who's so attached to her boyfriend that she's incredibly jealous of boyfriend's daughter (yet happy to have an affair on the side), he then completely innocently came home, had a shower, went out clutching some clothes, came home without said clothes, went out and came home again, all in the small hours of the night, for completely innocent reasons. And this is the same night his nefarious affair partner has decided to abduct and kill Alesha.

Meanwhile, clothes he'd lost in the sea several days earlier, resulting in walking home naked through a whole village who never saw him (and he was seen wearing similar that night) wash back up and coincidentally match fibres found on Alesha's body. A knife matching his mothers' kitchen block is found on the same beach. And somehow his affair partner has taken a condom full of his DNA and used it to frame him, while somehow getting fibres matching his clothes (which he'd lost days before meeting her) too... yet not getting any of her own DNA into the scene.

Probably missed a few details in there but yeah, I can't buy it. My ONE question mark is over how Alesha came to be out with him, as I do find it hard to understand how that could happen, but then we've never learned the layout of the flat, for all we know the door of her room could be right next to a stone staircase which doesn't creak! I don't think that's enough doubt for a "not proven" though; the CCTV timings, fibres and especially all that DNA tells too much of a story.

Would they have tested for her DNA at the scene?

If there was any would we know ? Her DNA would be expected around as she lived with them

 

[Alyce]

snipped by me

I still think the young team could do better sourcing info the police really need to use young people when investigating these things, they are more street wise and would be a great asset they know ways round everything

This absolutely

 

[stephaniejanes]

Guilty for me, there's too many elements to the overall picture for any other verdict (I'm nervous about a "not proven" but can't see a majority going that way). The DNA and fibre evidence require a lot of mental gymnastics to explain away, while the defence witnesses seemed to be there purely to drag RM and TM through the mud and make them look unreliable, which does nothing at all to discredit the CCTV timings, the DNA, the fibres, etc etc.

Put it this way, in order for him to be found not guilty, the jury have to believe the accused is the unluckiest lad ever, just happened to go out for cannabis in the middle of the night, to end up having a secret rendezvous with a young woman who's so attached to her boyfriend that she's incredibly jealous of boyfriend's daughter (yet happy to have an affair on the side), he then completely innocently came home, had a shower, went out clutching some clothes, came home without said clothes, went out and came home again, all in the small hours of the night, for completely innocent reasons. And this is the same night his nefarious affair partner has decided to abduct and kill Alesha.

Meanwhile, clothes he'd lost in the sea several days earlier, resulting in walking home naked through a whole village who never saw him (and he was seen wearing similar that night) wash back up and coincidentally match fibres found on Alesha's body. A knife matching his mothers' kitchen block is found on the same beach. And somehow his affair partner has taken a condom full of his DNA and used it to frame him, while somehow getting fibres matching his clothes (which he'd lost days before meeting her) too... yet not getting any of her own DNA into the scene.

Probably missed a few details in there but yeah, I can't buy it. My ONE question mark is over how Alesha came to be out with him, as I do find it hard to understand how that could happen, but then we've never learned the layout of the flat, for all we know the door of her room could be right next to a stone staircase which doesn't creak! I don't think that's enough doubt for a "not proven" though; the CCTV timings, fibres and especially all that DNA tells too much of a story.

Completely agree - the amount of highly improbable (virtually impossible) things to happen to fit his story just doesn't make sense to me. And that's what it was - a story. He didn't provide any evidence to support his story (I know burden rests with prosecution but regardless, if any of this was true surely there would be something to support his version of events!)