Deceased/Not Found UK - April Jones, 5, Machynlleth, Wales, 1 Oct 2012 #3 *M. Bridger guilty*

[Inge Jones]

He was reported as being dishevelled and unshaven too. I would hope he is being watched due to this and his demeanour in court.

Well I think we can more or less rule out psychosis then - this man is very aware of exactly the situation he is in, and how serious the events leading up have been, and is responding in a normal way to a very distressing situation. I am even less inclined than before to think in terms of deliberate murder. Though I am not inclined to think in terms of "wrong man" here - I am fairly confident he is linked to the scenario.

 

[Clio]

So, is there a (legal) reason for including time when she was definitely alive and when the suspect was already in custody?

IIRC normally the dates are from midnight the day before the person was last seen alive to midnight on the day the body was discovered.

In this case April was alive on 1st October so the start date is midnight on 30th September. In this case there is no body (yet) so I don't know how they've determined the end date. They can't be basing it on when MB was taken into custody otherwise it would be midnight on the 2nd Oct I would have thought. Maybe whatever they found which allowed them to add the charge of murder enabled them to determine latest possible time of death? Don't know

 

[sleuther317]

Clu can attest to this too - she's followed A LOT of the same cases.

It is incredibly rare for police to charge for a murder of a child without a body. It's an important distinction. No body cases are rare anyway but almost unheard of in children. There are dozens of cases of 'missing' children most following presume are dead (usually by parental hands) but law enforcement have been slow to consider the victim deceased, slower still to label these disappearances as murder, and downright stagnant at bringing charges forward without a body.

Knowing that, I have to believe whatever evidence they have against MB has to be compelling and utterly damning. MOO

This reminded me of both the Sierra Lamar case and the Ayla Reynolds case. In both cases no bodies have been found.

With Sierra Lamar, the suspect is awaiting trial. His DNA was found on her discarded personal items and her DNA was found in his car which led police to believe he murdered her. The LE has disclosed the fact that the DNA found in his car suggests she is deceased. We can infer as to what that may be.

In the Ayla case, dad reports infant abducted in the middle of the night from her crib. nothing else stolen, no one woke up, and no sign of a break in. Significant amounts of blood splatter was found in the basement yet no arrest was made. It is in my eyes obvious what happened to her but the police don't have enough evidence to make an arrest. But again, the LE has disclosed what possible evidence has been found.

Now in Aprils case, a suspect is being charged and NO hint of what the evidence is has been reported. This doesn't make sense. Why is the LE in this case being so tight lipped? If they feel that they have the right person then why not disclose the evidence they have found. I think this is what makes me so suspicious of this case. No body, no evidence (made public) yet they are trying to convict. What is it that the police are waiting until trial to disclose? If they are SO SURE then what would it hurt to tell us now....
My thought is that they are not so sure of this evidence or are hoping to find some between now and then. JMO

 

[Jasper52]

:candle:Hello, everyone! Another sad day with no sign of April yet, I see.

I'd be interested in hearing more on this, if anyone can elaborate:

People described him as quiet, but said he was not particularly popular in the tight–knit community.

The timeline for his living arrangements/locations is confusing:

One resident of the estate said that he was recently evicted from his rented accommodation after his landlady discovered that he had been keeping chickens inside the property.

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...s-profile-of-former-soldier-Mark-Bridger.html

 

[Clio]

This reminded me of both the Sierra Lamar case and the Ayla Reynolds case. In both cases no bodies have been found.

With Sierra Lamar, the suspect is awaiting trial. His DNA was found on her discarded personal items and her DNA was found in his car which led police to believe he murdered her. The LE has disclosed the fact that the DNA found in his car suggests she is deceased. We can infer as to what that may be.

In the Ayla case, dad reports infant abducted in the middle of the night from her crib. nothing else stolen, no one woke up, and no sign of a break in. Significant amounts of blood splatter was found in the basement yet no arrest was made. It is in my eyes obvious what happened to her but the police don't have enough evidence to make an arrest. But again, the LE has disclosed what possible evidence has been found.

Now in Aprils case, a suspect is being charged and NO hint of what the evidence is has been reported. This doesn't make sense. Why is the LE in this case being so tight lipped? If they feel that they have the right person then why not disclose the evidence they have found. I think this is what makes me so suspicious of this case. No body, no evidence (made public) yet they are trying to convict. What is it that the police are waiting until trial to disclose? If they are SO SURE then what would it hurt to tell us now....
My thought is that they are not so sure of this evidence or are hoping to find some between now and then. JMO

Different countries, different laws. UK LE release nothing about what evidence they have before a trial. You can't infer anything from it one way or another.

 

[sleuther317]

Different countries, different laws. UK LE release nothing about what evidence they have before a trial. You can't infer anything from it one way or another.

Ohhhh ok. Thank you! I keep hearing and thinking about the lack of evidence and thought someone somewhere would have mentioned that. Thanks for clearing that up. I was hoping that was the case but wasn't sure.

 

[veggiefan]

This reminded me of both the Sierra Lamar case and the Ayla Reynolds case.

These are both cases in the USA, I think.

Now in Aprils case, a suspect is being charged and NO hint of what the evidence is has been reported. This doesn't make sense. Why is the LE in this case being so tight lipped?

In the UK, evidence is presented in court. It is not broadcast by the police. It is particularly important that the jury come to a verdict on the facts they have heard in court, and not on what they read in newspapers or on websites.

It's just a different way of doing things over here - it is perfectly normal for no evidence to be revealed until the trial itself, which is likely to be many months away yet.

 

[Skigh]

IIRC normally the dates are from midnight the day before the person was last seen alive to midnight on the day the body was discovered.

In this case April was alive on 1st October so the start date is midnight on 30th September. In this case there is no body (yet) so I don't know how they've determined the end date. They can't be basing it on when MB was taken into custody otherwise it would be midnight on the 2nd Oct I would have thought. Maybe whatever they found which allowed them to add the charge of murder enabled them to determine latest possible time of death? Don't know

It could be the time forensic results confirmed that April must be dead.

What the Police found must have been be quite significant in order to change him being arrested for abduction to suspicion of murder.

 

[Sarah]

Different countries, different laws. UK LE release nothing about what evidence they have before a trial. You can't infer anything from it one way or another.

Exactly what I was about to say - absolutely nothing unusual about it at all.

Although, I think it's fair to say that evidence indicative of his involvement does exist. The police in the UK don't make the decision to charge a suspect - it's up to the CPS to assess the evidence and determine whether it's sufficient to progress to court. That's not something that they would take lightly in such a high profile case or in pursuing a murder conviction without a body. On the other hand, by no means does that mean that everyone charged with a crime is guilty either.

Until it goes to court and we know what evidence there is / isn't I'm not going to form an opinion about MB's innocence or guilt.
There's likely a lot more to this than we currently know about.

 

[Clio]

Ohhhh ok. Thank you! I keep hearing and thinking about the lack of evidence and thought someone somewhere would have mentioned that. Thanks for clearing that up. I was hoping that was the case but wasn't sure.

I don't think that in the earlier discussions, posters were saying there is lack of evidence. I thought the discussion was more around whether people "felt" it possible that MB could have done such a thing.

UK "no body" murder convictions, particularly of a child so young are practically unheard of. It is extremely unlikely that the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) would have sanctioned proceeding with a murder charge if the evidence wasn't sufficient to give a good chance of conviction.

In the UK, once charges have been made the accused can't be questioned afresh about things related to that charge. If LE didn't think they had enough evidence for a murder charge they could have just charged MB with child abduction alone. I think if they had done that, it would have enabled them to continue to question MB about evidence relating to murder. They didn't do that - they charged him on both counts at once so they must be pretty confident with the evidence they have. IMO

 

[Fluttershy]

I've got my candle ready for 7pm. Is anyone else joining me?

 

[Clio]

It could be the time forensic results confirmed that April must be dead.

Possibly. They certainly said they were fast tracking the forensics on the car

What the Police found must have been be quite significant in order to change him being arrested for abduction to suspicion of murder.

Absolutely. I'm trying not to dwell on what it is they found.

 

[stacemcace]

I've got my candle ready for 7pm. Is anyone else joining me?

Me too xx

 

[Insp.Dots]

This is what the original police statement on the Dyfed-Powys website said



http://www.dyfed-powys.police.uk/en/news/latest-news/201210/missing-girl-in-machynlleth

Maybe police got further clarification from the 7 year-old after they issued their first statement or more likely the media made assumptions after police had released details of MB's dark blue Landrover?

Hmm all interesting thank you, as far as I knew the 7YR was interviewed on the tuesday with the 'specialist officers' helping her to make a statement.
I havent caught up with all posts yet today, but according to several reports oe of the charges was between Sept 30th and Oct 3rd....She was at home on 30th wasn't she??? Bad reporting or factual, can we get hold of the genuine charges read?? Anyone know??

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/oct/08/mark-bridger-court-april-jones?newsfeed=true

 

[Insp.Dots]

Thank you! It's almost like some people want the police to be wrong.

No offense to anyone but I'd place more trust in the police's DNA evidence than the feelings people get about MB who have nothing to do with the case.

I agree, Also think with regard to the colour of the vehicle, this is a small child, if she was stood at the side she would probable be level with the bottom of the door window, if that, the main colour she would have seen would have been the silver/white/grey stripe.

I think the Police KNOW they have the right man and like you say would not charge Murder without the evidence of death, (the CPS wouldn't allow that anyhow) but also that without a body they know it is harder to prove so they have made sure they have charged with him with everything they can to make sure he is locked up and pays for whatever it is that is proven.

It is of course opinion so please don't rant at me!! lol :what:

 

[Skigh]

Possibly. They certainly said they were fast tracking the forensics on the car



Absolutely. I'm trying not to dwell on what it is they found.

I know the police fast tracked forensics from the car.

I thought what they found which led to the change of the arrest charge was found at his house-I might be totally wrong about that.

 

[Insp.Dots]

I have been reading what I can on this site for a while but only joined a few days ago....Just want to say Thank you to you all for your patience with us newbies, what a fantastic group you are. It is lovely to discuss and debate these cases without any nastiness. Thanks again everyone

 

[veggiefan]

I havent caught up with all posts yet today, but according to several reports oe of the charges was between Sept 30th and Oct 3rd....She was at home on 30th wasn't she??? Bad reporting or factual, can we get hold of the genuine charges read?? Anyone know??

When you catch up with reading the earlier posts (especially 137) you will see that this is correct. "Between Sept 30th and Oct 3rd" means either the 1st or the 2nd October. It doesn't include the 30th Sept.

 

[Insp.Dots]

When you catch up with reading the earlier posts (especially 137) you will see that this is correct. "Between Sept 30th and Oct 3rd" means either the 1st or the 2nd October. It doesn't include the 30th Sept.

Great, thank you, I did wonder.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I don't think that in the earlier discussions, posters were saying there is lack of evidence. I thought the discussion was more around whether people "felt" it possible that MB could have done such a thing.

UK "no body" murder convictions, particularly of a child so young are practically unheard of. It is extremely unlikely that the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) would have sanctioned proceeding with a murder charge if the evidence wasn't sufficient to give a good chance of conviction.

In the UK, once charges have been made the accused can't be questioned afresh about things related to that charge. If LE didn't think they had enough evidence for a murder charge they could have just charged MB with child abduction alone. I think if they had done that, it would have enabled them to continue to question MB about evidence relating to murder. They didn't do that - they charged him on both counts at once so they must be pretty confident with the evidence they have. IMO

BBM

I am in awe of your legal knowledge . . . thanks for sharing it!

Regarding the sentence I bolded above, can LE question MB about things related to the charge if he and his counselor agree? For example, is there an equivalent to a plea bargain? Could MB agree to talk to LE and provide the location of April, for instance, in exchange for a reduction in charges?

Sorry if this has been asked/answered. I've tried to keep up with all the posts, but may have missed a few!