Deceased/Not Found UK - April Jones, 5, Machynlleth, Wales, 1 Oct 2012 #6 *M. Bridger guilty*

[Cherwell]

What it tells us is that here is another crime where someone has been charged with the murder of a missing person, and the accused does not 'fit' the profile that many people seem to expect. Friends and colleagues describing them as good father, nice bloke etc.
And no obvious motive.

It's still got nothing to do with this case, in my opinion.

 

[Cappuccino]

You might not be, but plenty of others have expressed that view.

And in which universe do police have to 'show us the evidence'? The prosecutor has to show it to the defence, Judge and jury at trial.

In what universe did I claim the police have to show us the evidence? I just stated as a fact that they haven't, and therefore we are not in a position to jump to conclusions.

 

[LegallyBrunette]

In what universe did I claim the police have to show us the evidence? I just stated as a fact that they haven't, and therefore we are not in a position to jump to conclusions.

Does that therefore mean that as he has been charged and committed for trial, that the police, CPS and judge are jumping to conclusions? Yes, there is a presumption of innocence until the verdict, but there has to be sufficient evidence to bring charges.

My point is that unless anyone here ends up on the jury, we won't be the ones analysing the evidence when it is disclosed.

 

[Cappuccino]

Does that therefore mean that as he has been charged and committed for trial, that the police, CPS and judge are jumping to conclusions? Yes, there is a presumption of innocence until the verdict, but there has to be sufficient evidence to bring charges.

My point is that unless anyone here ends up on the jury, we won't be the ones analysing the evidence when it is disclosed.

BBM.

Possibly, yes. It certainly wouldn't be the first time if so, as Colin Stagg could no doubt tell you. And "sufficient evidence" for the CPS is not the same thing as sufficient evidence to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt.

 

[Clutchbag]

Does that therefore mean that as he has been charged and committed for trial, that the police, CPS and judge are jumping to conclusions? Yes, there is a presumption of innocence until the verdict, but there has to be sufficient evidence to bring charges.

My point is that unless anyone here ends up on the jury, we won't be the ones analysing the evidence when it is disclosed.

The press will be reporting on the trial daily presumably so we should get to hear some evidence

 

[Cherwell]

But surely the point here is that the police know what evidence there is, while we don't - yet.

 

[BritsKate]

The connection (besides Wales and a murder charge without a body) is that in both cases the accused seems to be an unlikely offender, and was known to the victim.

Just for the interest of balance this is actually the norm. 76% of women, 50% of men, and 70% of under 16's knew their murderer according to 2008-9 statistics.

As for profiles and such - who is likely to offend - one of the most intriguing books I've read to date was Ann Rule's 'The Stranger Beside Me' about her working relationship, at a suicide prevention hotline, and indeed friendship with Ted Bundy. Though an exact figure will always be hazy it's generally accepted he murdered at least 30 women in 4 years over 7 states.

Ann Rule was a policewoman and is now a well known true crime author. It's fascinating to read her thoughts on exactly how masterful Bundy was at portraying normalcy. MOO

 

[LegallyBrunette]

BBM.

Possibly, yes. It certainly wouldn't be the first time if so, as Colin Stagg could no doubt tell you. And "sufficient evidence" for the CPS is not the same thing as sufficient evidence to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt.

6.A realistic prospect of conviction is an objective test based solely upon the prosecutor's assessment of the evidence and any information that he or she has about the defence that might be put forward by the suspect. It means that an objective, impartial and reasonable jury or bench of magistrates or judge hearing a case alone, properly directed and acting in accordance with the law, is more likely than not to convict the defendant of the charge alleged. This is a different test from the one that the criminal courts themselves must apply. A court may only convict if it is sure that the defendant is guilty (BRD).

http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/code_for_crown_prosecutors/codetest.html

 

[Cappuccino]

6.A realistic prospect of conviction is an objective test based solely upon the prosecutor's assessment of the evidence and any information that he or she has about the defence that might be put forward by the suspect. It means that an objective, impartial and reasonable jury or bench of magistrates or judge hearing a case alone, properly directed and acting in accordance with the law, is more likely than not to convict the defendant of the charge alleged. This is a different test from the one that the criminal courts themselves must apply. A court may only convict if it is sure that the defendant is guilty (BRD).

http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/code_for_crown_prosecutors/codetest.html

Yes, that's the same rule that was in force when Colin Stagg was charged with no evidence at all. The CPS have great rules, but they are operated by human beings, not divine beings. Therefore, they are far from immuned to making mistakes and jumping to conclusions. We cannot judge whether they are right or wrong in this case until we have seen the evidence upon which they based their decision.

 

[LegallyBrunette]

The press will be reporting on the trial daily presumably so we should get to hear some evidence

You will, but remember it's still not the same as being in the courtroom and observing each witness give their evidence, their demeanour, nuances of the spoken word that can't be conveyed in the written word.
One reason why in criminal trials the witness (unless protected) has to be seen by the jury and the evidence spoken, not read in statements.
And why there have been problems here when Muslim women refused to remove face covering when appearing as a witness - judge ruled that natural justice required that the jury had to see her face to properly decide on the credibility of her evidence.

 

[LegallyBrunette]

Yes, that's the same rule that was in force when Colin Stagg was charged with no evidence at all. The CPS have great rules, but they are operated by human beings, not divine beings. Therefore, they are far from immuned to making mistakes and jumping to conclusions. We cannot judge whether they are right or wrong in this case until we have seen the evidence upon which they based their decision.

And that is the purpose of the trial.

 

[Cappuccino]

And that is the purpose of the trial.

That's what I've been saying all along. You can't jump from the fact that the CPS charged someone to an assumption of guilt, for all we know the evidence could be complete rubbish just as it has been in many other cases where the CPS have charged someone.

 

[Cherwell]

One reason why in criminal trials the witness (unless protected) has to be seen by the jury and the evidence spoken, not read in statements.

In fact in the UK, witness statements may be read out in court in the absence of the witness, if all parties agree.

 

[Clutchbag]

You will, but remember it's still not the same as being in the courtroom and observing each witness give their evidence, their demeanour, nuances of the spoken word that can't be conveyed in the written word.
One reason why in criminal trials the witness (unless protected) has to be seen by the jury and the evidence spoken, not read in statements.
And why there have been problems here when Muslim women refused to remove face covering when appearing as a witness - judge ruled that natural justice required that the jury had to see her face to properly decide on the credibility of her evidence.

no, its not the same but I thought you were suggesting no one will hear the evidence to analyse it once trial starts, we normally do, and once it starts we will be able to place things together or not and filling in some of the gaps or not

 

[Cherwell]

Many schools don't hold parents' evenings for the whole school - too many people for the headteacher to meet - and instead hold them for selected year groups. One or both of the parents may have gone back later, but the Council seemed to think that they were not on the premises at the same time as MB.

Is anybody directly quoted as saying this? Or has it just been inferred from other info?

Also just wondering if April's brother is in the same year as one of MB's children. I've lost track of their ages just now.

It may all be completely irrelevant of course.

 

[Clutchbag]

Is anybody directly quoted as saying this? Or has it just been inferred from other info?

Also just wondering if April's brother is in the same year as one of MB's children. I've lost track of their ages just now.

It may all be completely irrelevant of course.

This is from one of the guardian blogs, to me it reads as surmised by sky or perhaps the blog writer, and seems fair enough, though doesnt mean one or both parents didnt go back later for another appointment for the other child

-------


Mark Bridger was at a parents' evening between 5.30pm and 6pm, the local council has confirmed to Sky News.

And it was the same parents' evening that April Jones's family were at.

But, the council has said, Coral and Paul Jones are believed to have left at 3.30pm, meaning it is unlikely they and April overlapped with Bridger.

 

[Clutchbag]

Re age of the kids MBs son by ED is said to be 13 so wouldnt be at that school which is for ages 4-11, but his daughter by ED who is said to be 9 could be. Aprils brother is said to be 10.So possibly in same year.
This info from googled news reports.

 

[southernnana]

:heartbeat: :heartbeat: :heartbeat:

I found a Link with the shoes that April was photographed wearing with the clothing she was described as wearing when she was abducted. Otherwise, the Link appears to be old news.

My prayers go out for little April, her loved ones, and all those who have worked so deligently trying to bring her home. God Bless All. lease:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...reaking-news-April-Jones-murder-live-air.html

<snipped> and BBM

bijoux, the only shoes I recall her wearing with the outfit described in your post are what looked like blue leather-look lace-up tennis shoes or oxfords. I say blue because her trousers also appear to be blue which is a more common color for a five-year old to be wearing. Otherwise, if the true color is black trousers, then probably black lace-ups.

I cannot find the link at this time with a photo that shows the shoes, but the shoes have been shown previously in photos. I will continue to look for the link.

 

[Insp.Dots]

OK, I've found it - it's from the Guardian blog, so it is a reporter who is quoted, and she has paraphrased the press interview, putting her own spin on it.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2012/oct/02/april-jones-missing-five-live

Thanks for that, It feels like everyone is clutching at everything that has ever been said and BECAUSE we know son little putting there own spin on it.
I really don't have the energy to go back through the threads but there is one that states The only previous conviction was a minor assault charge, I expect it's been pulled now since he's been charged.


FWIW.. I remember listening very carefully to the Police interviews and when they were asked if Bridger was know to the Police, It was BEFORE they released his name and they were referring simply to knowing who they were looking for as I remember it. :twocents:

 

[Insp.Dots]

Maybe so, but a parent can still make an effort, it's up to the child/young adult whether they accept it. MB's son didn't sound bitter or negative about his father in that interview, he just stated facts. Never said 'oh, he used to come around but we didn't want anything to do with him etc'.

But it has already been said the relationship ended with a bitter break-up.
There is no way of knowing WHO was to blame, they may BOTH have been Bitter. And unless JW appears as a witness and says something that would show her ex partner to be 'whatever' we probably will never know!
Yes I'm sure SW was/is more than capable of forming a relationship with his Father IF he wanted.

This again, has little to do with 'Finding April', the poor lad is already putting up with abuse from social networks just for being related to MB. Lets move on...