Deceased/Not Found UK - April Jones, 5, Machynlleth, Wales, 1 Oct 2012 #6 *M. Bridger guilty*

[Amber34]

This is going to sound ridiculous probably.
But could drunkenness or drunken blackouts be used as a defense in Court? And if so how likely would it be that a jury would accept such a defense?

I'm not saying this is what has happened here but alcohol has been mentioned and I just wondered if anyone has heard of any cases where it's been used before??

This is something I have been pondering for a while.

I do have an entire scenario worked out in my head where diminished responsibility could be entered as a plea. I don't think it is something that even the very best criminal lawyer would depend upon unless they had compelling supporting evidence.

 

[Cherwell]

Am I correct in assuming then, that when charges were laid, LE had to consider that they might not have enough evidence for a murder charge to convict, hence the 3rd charge?

Well, all we can do is speculate ... I imagine that at the most, they only had proof of a death (or probable death, perhaps). Murder is not always easy to prove.

One point about the third charge is that if it wasn't murder, say it was accidental, for instance death caused by dangerous driving - then he should have owned up to what had happened. This is where alcohol might have taken over again though. But it's just theorising, may be way off the track.

 

[Cherwell]

And what would be the reason that he can't say where he put AJ?

Because he can't remember. As I said:

Shock and alcohol can black out traumatic incidents, so it could be that he really doesn't remember.

 

[Cendlaetholwr]

But surely the point here is that the police know what evidence there is, while we don't - yet.

A note of caution on this. A friend of mine in England served on a jury in recent years. Naturally, he didn't give any details of the case nor of what was discussed in the jury room. What he did say was that from the press coverage he'd seen of the trial after it had finished, people would be surprised as to how the defendant was found guilty, yet if you were in the jury's position, it won't have come as a surprise at all.

 

[bijoux]

Because he can't remember.

Sorry, I misread your post.

However, even if he had a blackout at some point ie. during the traumatic event, surely some fragments of memory could be pieced together to form some kind of scenario, plus it doesn't explain why AJ was in his car in the first place, unless he doesn't remember that either.

*goes to look up blackouts associated with alcohol consumption*

 

[cluciano63]

Thanks. But what about the charge specifically stating that the offence occurred "at Machynlleth"? Is this also standard procedure or does it indicate that the police know, or MB has indicated, that he disposed of the body locally?

It is possible they found a crime scene there.

 

[ann-other]

JMO I can't see alcohol played a part in the time up to AJ's disappearance. I would have thought he would not of gone to parents evening strongly under the influence. After, whatever happened, yes then maybe..

 

[southernnana]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-live-air.html

The above Link that I provided did not describe April's clothing and I did not mean to imply such ... the purpose of that Link was only to show the photo of April wearing the shoes I previously described, as shoes that I recalled April had been photographed wearing with the same clothing that she was wearing when abducted as reported in MSM.

I responded to or quoted a post from bijoux where she described the clothing and provided a Link for verification ... as does the ibtimes Link that you provided.

I'm sorry, think I'm going mad Can't see, where does it say that was the outfit?

There is this one:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/3...g-april-jones-five-van-machynlleth-search.htm

"Despite the lack of clarity, police have revealed that April was wearing a purple knee-length coat with grey fur around the hood, a white polo shirt and black trousers."

The history of the posts involved:

<snipped>
In reference to the youtube link frommer posted:

I assume if those shoes had been April's, LE would have said so?

However it prompted me to verify what LE said AJ was wearing at the time of her abduction, but all I could find was this:
"Police said she was wearing her white primary school T- shirt, a purple padded coat with fur collar and black trousers."

But there was no mention in that article regarding the type of shoes or boots she was wearing. I wonder if it was stated elsewhere, though I've been unable to find it.

The Telegraph

<snipped> and BBM

<snipped> and BBM

bijoux, the only shoes I recall her wearing with the outfit described in your post are what looked like blue leather-look lace-up tennis shoes or oxfords. I say blue because her trousers also appear to be blue which is a more common color for a five-year old to be wearing. Otherwise, if the true color is black trousers, then probably black lace-ups.

I cannot find the link at this time with a photo that shows the shoes, but the shoes have been shown previously in photos. I will continue to look for the link.

Originally Posted by southernnana
Today at 2:41 p.m.

:heartbeat: :heartbeat: :heartbeat:

I found a Link with the shoes that April was photographed wearing with the clothing she was described as wearing when she was abducted. Otherwise, the Link appears to be old news.

My prayers go out for little April, her loved ones, and all those who have worked so deligently trying to bring her home. God Bless All. lease:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-live-air.html

 

[bijoux]

... plus it doesn't explain why AJ was in his car in the first place.

And if we knew that, the rest might fall into place.

Here's wiki's page on Blackout (alcohol-related amnesia) for anyone who might be interested.

 

[ann-other]

Having being married to an alcoholic in my very early 20's, I know something about this. I don't see any evidence to suggest MB was an alcoholic and if he wasn't, unless there was/is another medical explanation, a 'blackout' is not explainable.

 

[Clutchbag]

Having being married to an alcoholic in my very early 20's, I know something about this. I don't see any evidence to suggest MB was an alcoholic and if he wasn't, unless there was/is another medical explanation, a 'blackout' is not explainable.

Pictures of his garden had recycling bins full of wine bottles and beer cans, on a weekly recycling rota there

If he drank all that himself id say he was alcoholic, or at least a heavy binge drinker, still an alcoholic does not make a murderer ever on its own

Eta ive posted this before however much of a blackout one has one never forgets if one murdered someone, they may forget where they got rid of the body though

 

[ann-other]

Pictures of his garden had recycling bins full of wine bottles and beer cans, on a weekly recycling rota there

If he drank all that himself id say he was alcoholic, or at least a heavy binge drinker, still an alcoholic does not make a murderer ever on its own

Eta ive posted this before however much of a blackout one has one never forgets if one murdered someone, they may forget where they got rid of the body though

Still don't accept alcohol was a factor to a blackout but not stating it could not of been a mitigating factor. FYI my husband died at the age of 32, I had left many years before but the 'blackouts' only occurred after days of binge drinking. And there is no doubt in my mind that my ex would/did know what he had done, however bad.

MB might of been a heavy drinker but not necessarily an alcoholic. Plenty people drink heavily but as you said, they would not forget if they murdered someone and I would like to add - what they did afterwards...

 

[Cherwell]

Having being married to an alcoholic in my very early 20's, I know something about this. I don't see any evidence to suggest MB was an alcoholic and if he wasn't, unless there was/is another medical explanation, a 'blackout' is not explainable.

I blacked out as a young teenager, having been plied with too much strong drink at a party. Woke up at home in my bed with no memory of having left the party or how I got home. So it's not true that it can only happen to alcoholics.

Eta ive posted this before however much of a blackout one has one never forgets if one murdered someone

I do hope you're not speaking from experience there

 

[Dirk Gently]

It is possible they found a crime scene there.

Possibly, but the charge in question concerns the unlawful disposal and concealment of AJ's body. Would Machynlleth be referred to in this context unless police had reason to believe that the disposal had occurred there?

I'm just trying to establish whether there's a legal norm that requires the offence to be situated in a specific locale. If so then the reference to Machynlleth makes perfect sense. If there's no such legal requirement then perhaps the reference means that the "black bag" reports are credible and that AJ's body was dumped in the River Dyfi?

That said, I've just come across this on the Fountain of Knowledge that is Wikipedia:

"Many criminals dispose of bodies in a river, hoping that the body is carried away. However, this method will most likely lead to a quick detection of the body, because the body gets entangled at the side of the river, or stopped at a dam, or is simply seen floating by others. A disposal in large lakes or oceans is more likely to hide the body, but a decomposing body can develop a strong positive buoyancy due to the decomposing gases being trapped underneath the skin. This may bring the body up to the surface, or at least increase the movement across the ocean floor due to wave actions. Many bodies have washed up at the shore. Bodies have also been discovered in the nets or lines of fishermen, and occasionally, bodies are also discovered by divers.

Very cold water with little oxygen may even preserve bodies, allowing for an easier identification, as for example Margaret Hogg, the Wasdale Lady in the Lake in Wast Water lake in the Wasdale area (see National Trust Properties in England). She was found after 8 years, with her body preserved like wax."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposal_of_human_corpses#Illegal_disposal_of_bodies_in_the_water

 

[Cendlaetholwr]

Just curious because I haven't been in the UK for some time and we've had 4G here (Telstra network) for a few years now. Telstra is the only network which has 4G (phones and internet)
Last time I was in UK I had a tri-band phone on roaming and it was brilliant - (didn't drive in the Welsh valleys) but all through Yorkshire, into Scotland and around Cumbria as well as remote places in Ireland.

Generations of mobile phone tech in the UK:

1G: analogue
2G: GSM; 2.5G: GPRS; 2.75G: EDGE
3G: UMTS; HSPA: 3.5G
4G: LTE

/tech mode off. I also need to get a life.

 

[ann-other]

I blacked out as a young teenager, having been plied with too much strong drink at a party. Woke up at home in my bed with no memory of having left the party or how I got home. So it's not true that it can only happen to alcoholics.



I do hope you're not speaking from experience there

Fair enough but that is a young kid's experience (all been there at some point!) But MB not young, had obviously seen life etc

 

[Clutchbag]

I blacked out as a young teenager, having been plied with too much strong drink at a party. Woke up at home in my bed with no memory of having left the party or how I got home. So it's not true that it can only happen to alcoholics.



I do hope you're not speaking from experience there

hahaha cherwell glad to say NO!!! Though i was told i climbed through my conservatory window once and looked scary hehe
i never remembered doing it, either, so embarrassing
Seriously murdering or even hiding a body would never be held in a mind blackout imo
the unconscious mind and ones conscience would overwhelm drink fuelled memory problems
have a good nite all and hope the little girl is found alive or dead soonest

 

[SheepMan]

Just curious because I haven't been in the UK for some time and we've had 4G here (Telstra network) for a few years now. Telstra is the only network which has 4G (phones and internet)
Last time I was in UK I had a tri-band phone on roaming and it was brilliant - (didn't drive in the Welsh valleys) but all through Yorkshire, into Scotland and around Cumbria as well as remote places in Ireland.

Telstra (who I work for) introduced the 4G network in September 2011 in Australia, so only a year ago. However the network (whatever it is) in the UK is a lot faster based on my experiences whilst going back to visit family. As previously discussed on here though you can't trace a mobile if the battery is dead or removed (regardless of the model). I would think due to high profile cases in the past most criminals would remove the battery or leave the phone at home because of this.

 

[Clutchbag]

:

Still don't accept alcohol was a factor to a blackout but not stating it could not of been a mitigating factor. FYI my husband died at the age of 32, I had left many years before but the 'blackouts' only occurred after days of binge drinking. And there is no doubt in my mind that my ex would/did know what he had done, however bad.

MB might of been a heavy drinker but not necessarily an alcoholic. Plenty people drink heavily but as you said, they would not forget if they murdered someone and I would like to add - what they did afterwards...

sorry ann i missed your post, i agree and sorry to hear about your husband bloody hell 32 to die

 

[raithjames]

I was looking at missing people in Wales and was surprised to see another girl who was from machynlleth disappeared 1 Sept 2003 Natalie Putts. Also strange incident with a missing woman in aberystwyth. Also is it just me or does MB, clive sharp and the man who ran down all them women and children look alike??