UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #4

[everybodhi]

Isn't the autopsy supposed to be done today? I wonder if they'll be able to determine whether or not Victoria died from natural causes.

If the body is badly decomposed I wonder if it's possible to establish that the baby was born alive or died shortly afterwards.

I know a taxi driver said he heard the sound of a baby, but has anyone actually reported seeing the baby with them at any time?

The taxi drivers reported hearing the baby in early January, in the first few days after their car was found. So, if their witness accounts are correct the baby still could have died within days after birth.
A perinatal pathologist would be able to tell if the baby’s health was compromised due to various causes like infection or abnormality by examining the placenta.
Even if a neonatal body is not decomposed, it is difficult to determine if they were stillborn because they look for air in the lungs but if any resuscitation is attempted that will also put air in the lungs.

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon arrested on suspicion of gross negligence manslaughter | UK news | The Guardian

“Taxi drivers used by the couple in the first few days after they went missing said they had heard noises coming from a baby. It is not known whether their baby was born full-term or has any health problems.”

How important is placental examination in cases of perinatal deaths? - PubMed

The placenta had changes that could explain fetal/infant death in 69.2% of the cases. The cause of death could be explained by placental examination alone, without autopsy, in 48.1% of the cases.
Only 16.3% of the deaths could be explained by autopsy alone.

 

[JTT]

Isn't the autopsy supposed to be done today? I wonder if they'll be able to determine whether or not Victoria died from natural causes.

If the body is badly decomposed I wonder if it's possible to establish that the baby was born alive or died shortly afterwards.

I know a taxi driver said he heard the sound of a baby, but has anyone actually reported seeing the baby with them at any time?

AFAIAA, no, there has been no known statement by any person who claims to have seen Victoria with either of her parents at any time, even when they had the buggy.
But it's not as if everyone who saw them at the foodbank, in Sainsbury's, etc., has said they didn't see a baby.

 

[BackseatDriver]

Isn't the autopsy supposed to be done today? I wonder if they'll be able to determine whether or not Victoria died from natural causes.

If the body is badly decomposed I wonder if it's possible to establish that the baby was born alive or died shortly afterwards.

I know a taxi driver said he heard the sound of a baby, but has anyone actually reported seeing the baby with them at any time?

IME/MOO she unlikely would not have died during/shortly after birth if they had been using taxis, shops (or any semi close contact with people). I have some experience of working with the deceased from imminent death to discovery weeks after death. The smell is incredibly strong, unmistakeable and impossible to cover by normal means. Even in open air. It does cling to skin/hair/clothing too. It would be very difficult for them to have kept Victoria close to their person with any level of decomposition.

Taking this into account I don't believe she was dead for weeks as has been hinted at in MSM. of course MOO and could be wrong.

 

[JTT]

It wasn't just based on his testimony, she also discusses it on her LinkedIn profile: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/constance-marten-93a6ab9a

Thank for this. She calls it a cult too.
"Assistant producer for a film to be aired late 2015" <- But what film was this?

 

[JTT]

IME/MOO she unlikely would not have died during/shortly after birth if they had been using taxis, shops (or any semi close contact with people). I have some experience of working with the deceased from imminent death to discovery weeks after death. The smell is incredibly strong, unmistakeable and impossible to cover by normal means. Even in open air. It does cling to skin/hair/clothing too. It would be very difficult for them to have kept Victoria close to their person with any level of decomposition.

Taking this into account I don't believe she was dead for weeks as has been hinted at in MSM. of course MOO and could be wrong.

It hasn't only been hinted at. The police have said they believe she "may" have been dead "for several weeks".
That doesn't make it true. Nor does it explain why the police felt it necessary to make such a statement, so early on, which they didn't say was based on any kind of forensic pathology. That was also when they said they'd been "unable" to confirm the baby's "gender", leading many to speculate that there may have been a lot of decomposition or even horrible deliberate action.
Am just pointing out that the police and the MSM have done more than hint.

Police believe Constance Marten's baby may have been dead for 'several weeks'

The body was found in a wooded area of Brighton close to where the couple, who had been on the run since 5 January, were arrested on Monday.

news.sky.com

Maybe worth adding that as far as we are aware they have not been accused of being brutes (MG was convicted 34 years ago of crimes of brutality of course, but I mean in this case or in recent years), nor have they been sectioned under the Mental Health Act. I don't know the legal side of it, but as a human being I would say that a person who carried a dead baby around under their coat for several weeks would be in need of mental health treatment.

 

[QB2022]

I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't intentional and happened trying to keep her warm. Obviously baby should never have been in that position in the first place so it would still class as manslaughter

 

[iamshadow21]

IME/MOO she unlikely would not have died during/shortly after birth if they had been using taxis, shops (or any semi close contact with people). I have some experience of working with the deceased from imminent death to discovery weeks after death. The smell is incredibly strong, unmistakeable and impossible to cover by normal means. Even in open air. It does cling to skin/hair/clothing too. It would be very difficult for them to have kept Victoria close to their person with any level of decomposition.

Taking this into account I don't believe she was dead for weeks as has been hinted at in MSM. of course MOO and could be wrong.

I believe the baby has been dead for weeks. But I don't believe that she has been being carried around since. I think Victoria died within a week (or possibly two) of them arriving in the area, but this is very much my opinion only.

 

[JuicyLucy]

But it's not as if everyone who saw them at the foodbank, in Sainsbury's, etc., has said they didn't see a baby.

The foodbank staff said exactly that:

Constance & partner seen at food bank without baby days before arrest

 

[iamshadow21]

The foodbank staff said exactly that:

Constance & partner seen at food bank without baby days before arrest

And with what little we know about the state of her remains, in all likelihood Victoria was dead long before the foodbank visit.

MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

And if Victoria had died at birth, they wouldn't have needed nappies for her at all.

The specialist paediatric pathologist will be able to look at her remains and hopefully fairly accurately estimate her age at time of death. Then it's going to come down to maths. We know roughly when she was born, and when she was heard by taxi drivers. There will be indicators of her PMI. That should hopefully narrow the window to about a week or so.

MOO

I also imagine plenty of people local to the woods / allotments / street area that the couple had been staying at will have now reviewed their CCTV footage and ring doorbells as well as recalling having seen the couple coming and going. So there will be a lot of reports we don't know about.

 

[JTT]

By what procedure was the deceased formally identified?

 

[Cuko]

By what procedure was the deceased formally identified?

Interesting question. To the best of my knowledge (which is far from comprehensive) there has been no reference to that by police or MSM.

 

[JuicyLucy]

By what procedure was the deceased formally identified?

I think it would have to be DNA. What other method could be used?

It's interesting to consider whether the DNA match should really have been confirmed before charges were made. I would question whether a definitive result was available at that time, but perhaps the wider, circumstantial context was enough, pending the result.

JMO

 

[starlightstarbright]

I’m a dual national who grew up in the US but living in UK and I definitely felt his accent sounded quite American, but quite southern Black American. I’m rubbish with accents generally though.

 

[starlightstarbright]

I think it’s the state the baby was found in, which is quite interesting and perplexing actually. Together they had this (much wanted?) baby, who then sadly passed away. They were obviously out and about. They were interacting with each other. They were moving about doing various jobs. They were next to an allotment with various tools.

Why didn’t they bury her? They had all the time in the world. At least 10 hours of daylight per day and it looked like they had been in that place several weeks, so what were they doing with all that time? I mean, even in the absence of tools they could have done it with their hands.

Trauma is a strange thing and I do think it’s part of this, but I just can’t quite get my head around it all. Why not just bury Victoria?

 

[rockthecasbah]

I think it’s the state the baby was found in, which is quite interesting and perplexing actually. Together they had this (much wanted?) baby, who then sadly passed away. They were obviously out and about. They were interacting with each other. They were moving about doing various jobs. They were next to an allotment with various tools.

Why didn’t they bury her? They had all the time in the world. At least 10 hours of daylight per day and it looked like they had been in that place several weeks, so what were they doing with all that time? I mean, even in the absence of tools they could have done it with their hands.

Trauma is a strange thing and I do think it’s part of this, but I just can’t quite get my head around it all. Why not just bury Victoria?

I was thinking the same. The woods are right there.

 

[JTT]

Why might she have given birth in the car? It's hard to imagine this as the main plan. They had some money left, as we know from their later taxi journeys and the camping gear purchase. Giving birth in the car could have resulted from any of various different things going wrong. One of those may have been early labour. They don't let you stay in your car on a ferry.

This line of thought makes me wonder what the main plan actually was. If they were fleeing to Ireland, did they have accommodation arranged? For all we know, she may have been planning to go to an Irish hospital. The question arises of why they didn't go to Ireland earlier. But what if she was only 7 months pregnant?

This is complete speculation.

 

[kittythehare]

I think it’s the state the baby was found in, which is quite interesting and perplexing actually. Together they had this (much wanted?) baby, who then sadly passed away. They were obviously out and about. They were interacting with each other. They were moving about doing various jobs. They were next to an allotment with various tools.

Why didn’t they bury her? They had all the time in the world. At least 10 hours of daylight per day and it looked like they had been in that place several weeks, so what were they doing with all that time? I mean, even in the absence of tools they could have done it with their hands.

Trauma is a strange thing and I do think it’s part of this, but I just can’t quite get my head around it all. Why not just bury Victoria?

it's possible they wanted to carry her remains to their final destination, not abandon her in a strange land.
I have no idea what their final destination plan was, maybe a house in a countryside somewhere?
a little cottage a tiny grave with a rose bush or tree..
Pretty sure they were in deep grief following her death.

 

[iamshadow21]

Why might she have given birth in the car? It's hard to imagine this as the main plan. They had some money left, as we know from their later taxi journeys and the camping gear purchase. Giving birth in the car could have resulted from any of various different things going wrong. One of those may have been early labour. They don't let you stay in your car on a ferry.

This line of thought makes me wonder what the main plan actually was. If they were fleeing to Ireland, did they have accommodation arranged? For all we know, she may have been planning to go to an Irish hospital. The question arises of why they didn't go to Ireland earlier. But what if she was only 7 months pregnant?

This is complete speculation.

I am in no way a paeds specialist, but my cousin's wife gave birth to twins at around seven months gestation due to life threatening circumstances (they're fine, now, they're high schoolers) and they were absolutely teeny tiny, hold in one hand babies. As far as I know, there's no way Victoria would have survived without medical intervention if she was that early (my cousin's kids were permanently in the NICU for months), and even if she had had lived long enough to get to the south coast, her body would be obviously different to that of a full term baby.

Very much my opinion only.

 

[JumpingFrog]

I agree that they were likely acting in a combination of fear, shock, grief and planned to take her with them, not bury her there. If people are hearing "London" on the audio, maybe it was a plan. I don't know this is only my opinion based on them running with her, which to me equals wanting to keep her.