UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #4

[wizardizzo76]

Why didn’t they bury her? They had all the time in the world. At least 10 hours of daylight per day and it looked like they had been in that place several weeks, so what were they doing with all that time? I mean, even in the absence of tools they could have done it with their hands.

The air temperature during this time was very cold. The ground temperature would have been colder. It would have been very hard to break the soil, even with tools. Even when there was 10°C in the warmer February days, there was -3°C nights. I would suggest that Constance maybe couldn't do it because of the trauma or because and Mark couldn't do it because his feet were knackered. Or maybe they were both a bit broken and they tried and gave up. Or waited until the ground thawed and then sort of forgot.

Why might she have given birth in the car? It's hard to imagine this as the main plan. They had some money left, as we know from their later taxi journeys and the camping gear purchase. Giving birth in the car could have resulted from any of various different things going wrong. One of those may have been early labour. They don't let you stay in your car on a ferry.

I assumed they bought the car for this purpose. If you drive your car into the middle of nowhere, you can give birth under shelter and with no one around to hear you scream.

Y'know the photo of Constance Marten that has been published in all the newspapers, showing her looking directly face-on to the camera, which some have suggested is a custody photo and others have observed might also be a passport photo?

Look at the attribution: "GMP". Likely to stand for Greater Manchester Police, surely? (JMO, other acronym decrypts are available, etc.)

Do we assume mugshot for MG? Why?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

By what procedure was the deceased formally identified?

I believe it has been reported in the mainstream media that CM and or MG had cooperated with the police *after* the baby had been located. Sorry I haven't got a link to hand. The way I interpreted that was that they had not been helpful or willing to speak before that time, may have been saying 'no comment' prior.

I imagine a barrister would need to see his client taking best instruction to confirm that it was their child and a) not lie about it when it could be proven otherwise; b) not force LE and the courts to go through a costly and prolonged process to confirm? Therefore, CM and MG in theory would have been able to confirm identification as being the two adults who knew her.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

RBBM.
I think this is a key part of why they did not bury Victoria. JMO. Maybe, they could not let her go. After everything they went through to keep her, they just could not let her go.
Shock and trauma can be so invasive, and it can evoke survival mode, almost like an auto-pilot setting. It can also bring about disassociation, as far as my memory recalls.
If this is the case, it is very sad.

I'm not saying you're right or wrong as none of us know but guilt and shame can be equally motivating forces on human behaviour. This case is sad because a tiny little being has been born in a car, been forced to be on the run, lived homelessly outdoors in the freezing cold, and passed away left in a shed. I can't imagine how it could have been any more heartbreaking of an outcome. Whatever the background information and explanation is, we have yet to hear it.

 

[Nikynoo]

I believe it has been reported in the mainstream media that CM and or MG had cooperated with the police *after* the baby had been located. Sorry I haven't got a link to hand. The way I interpreted that was that they had not been helpful or willing to speak before that time, may have been saying 'no comment' prior.

I imagine a barrister would need to see his client taking best instruction to confirm that it was their child and a) not lie about it when it could be proven otherwise; b) not force LE and the courts to go through a costly and prolonged process to confirm? Therefore, CM and MG in theory would have been able to confirm identification as being the two adults who knew her.

I would have thought that DNA was used. DNA samples are usually taken on arrest and I would imagine that the placenta would also have been used for DNA sampling.

 

[Cherwell]

I'm not saying you're right or wrong as none of us know but guilt and shame can be equally motivating forces on human behaviour. This case is sad because a tiny little being has been born in a car, been forced to be on the run, lived homelessly outdoors in the freezing cold, and passed away left in a shed. I can't imagine how it could have been any more heartbreaking of an outcome. Whatever the background information and explanation is, we have yet to hear it.

Forgive me if I've misunderstood, but are you implying that they left the baby alone in the shed and she died alone? Because I've seen nothing to suggest that.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

And with what little we know about the state of her remains, in all likelihood Victoria was dead long before the foodbank visit.

MOO

I agree. I feel like she must have passed in early February as they weren't spotted for a month as far as we know, and now we know they both visited a chip shop together without Victoria, I believe it was on the 11th of Feb?. I think they ventured out together when she had died. Jmo.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Forgive me if I've misunderstood, but are you implying that they left the baby alone in the shed and she died alone? Because I've seen nothing to suggest that.

No, that's not what I intended and realise it's super badly worded, apologies.

I meant at some point she passed away and at some point later remained left in the shed. There's been no news release or any type of info on how or why she passed, I imagine there won't be until the court case. I appreciate she was not actually left = 'abandoned' after death either - depending on what the circumstances, thoughts, and intentions of CM and MG were - as they were picked up by the police they could not return to her body, if they intended to. Unless they tell the court, we'll probably never know.

 

[JuicyLucy]

(BBM). They can't have endeavoured to "conceal the birth" in a legal sense before Victoria died. "Concealment of birth" is an offence to do with disposal of a dead body.

The crown case may be in a pickle here. Perhaps they should have been charged with preventing a lawful burial. But indictments can change - items can be removed or added before a trial starts.

Their actions and omissions from the moment 'Victoria' was born can all contribute to the case against them as regards concealment, even though those actions and omissions may have had no legal value (vis a vis this charge, at least) until the fact of her death had occurred.

Respectfully, I think you are overthinking this. It doesn't matter whether the country at large knew by other means that a baby had been born. The only salient point is whether CM & MG met, or failed to meet, their obligations under the Act.

My opinion is that some of the lesser charges may get sidelined if/when the manslaughter charge demonstrates that it can go the distance - and if for any reason it doesn't, it may be that other charges, such as preventing a lawful burial get added in.

<modsnip: Speculation not based on any known fact>

 

[DizzyBee]

Their actions and omissions from the moment 'Victoria' was born can all contribute to the case against them as regards concealment, even though those actions and omissions may have had no legal value (vis a vis this charge, at least) until the fact of her death had occurred.

Respectfully, I think you are overthinking this. It doesn't matter whether the country at large knew by other means that a baby had been born. The only salient point is whether CM & MG met, or failed to meet, their obligations under the Act.

My opinion is that some of the lesser charges may get sidelined if/when the manslaughter charge demonstrates that it can go the distance - and if for any reason it doesn't, it may be that other charges, such as preventing a lawful burial get added in.

But another possibility imo is that 'free birthing' and generally failing to comply with the administrative obligations surrounding birth may be an increasing problem now that the UK has imported a certain amount of QAnon-style freeman-of-the-land type attitudes. If so, then the extreme vulnerability to which that kind of thing exposes children might be seen to make it worth making an example of CM & MG, imo.

But IANAL.

Freeman on the land movement - Wikipedia
Sovereign citizen movement - Wikipedia

Sideline: I once looked after a family who decided to have a ‘sovereign birth’. They made a complaint when it was pointed out to them that it would make getting healthcare/vaccinations etc very difficult if they didn’t register the birth of their child as they felt we were accusing them of not caring about the child’s welfare (tbh it did sound as if proving a point was more important than any logistical issues). It was like they’d read one dodgy website and poorly formed an ideology to foist upon a child who got no say in the matter. They were happy enough to reap the benefits of free NHS maternity service though so ‍

 

[Leannaf2721]

Also, another possibility is that they may of not even know exactly how far she was. They may have thought she was less weeks than what she was. Guessing how many weeks you are would be incredibly difficult

 

[Nikynoo]

Also, another possibility is that they may of not even know exactly how far she was. They may have thought she was less weeks than what she was. Guessing how many weeks you are would be incredibly difficult

Not really a guess though is it, unless she had irregular periods. You just need date of last period and count 40 weeks.

 

[rightsaidfred]

Not really a guess though is it, unless she had irregular periods. You just need date of last period and count 40 weeks.

It might be optimistic to think that someone living a chaotic lifestyle, as CM appears to have been, was tracking their cycles. If I didn't track my periods on an app I'd really struggle to remember exactly when my last period was.

It would be very easy for someone who isn't tracking their periods to realise they haven't had a period for a while, take a pregnancy test, and only find out at that point... At which point they're not sure if their last period was 6 or 10 weeks ago.

 

[wizardizzo76]

Also, another possibility is that they may of not even know exactly how far she was. They may have thought she was less weeks than what she was. Guessing how many weeks you are would be incredibly difficult

I've had two kids and both times I knew when they were conceived. both times they were due 2 weeks later than 40 weeks post conception , both times they arrived 4 weeks later. It doesn't help that medically for the first two weeks of your pregnancy you aren't actually pregnant and could actually have been a virgin for those two weeks!! I also know people who have had no cessation of "periods" or at least regular bleeding, and have given birth entirely by surprise. ‍

 

[Leannaf2721]

Not really a guess though is it, unless she had irregular periods. You just need date of last period and count 40 weeks.

Loads of people don't count this for one reason ot another and especially so if not settled. Also, could of been taking some form of contraception on and off or had irregular periods to start with. Or could have bled i the early weeks. Ive never known exactly when my children would be due or even how many weeks for certain. Its enitirely possible they could of under guessed by 4 weeks easily

 

[Leannaf2721]

Not really a guess though is it, unless she had irregular periods. You just need date of last period and count 40 weeks.

Loads of people don't count this for one reason ot another and especially so if not settled. Also, could of been taking some form of contraception on and off or had irregular periods to start with. Or could have bled i the early weeks. Ive never known exactly when my children would be due or even how many weeks for certain. Its enitirely possible they could of under guessed by 4 weeks easily

It might be optimistic to think that someone living a chaotic lifestyle, as CM appears to have been, was tracking their cycles. If I didn't track my periods on an app I'd really struggle to remember exactly when my last period was.

It would be very easy for someone who isn't tracking their periods to realise they haven't had a period for a while, take a pregnancy test, and only find out at that point... At which point they're not sure if their last period was 6 or 10 weeks ago.

yes exactly this. If you don't track period dates by noting it's honestly so difficult to remember when was the last time

 

[rightsaidfred]

I've had two kids and both times I knew when they were conceived. both times they were due 2 weeks later than 40 weeks post conception , both times they arrived 4 weeks later. It doesn't help that medically for the first two weeks of your pregnancy you aren't actually pregnant and could actually have been a virgin for those two weeks!! I also know people who have had no cessation of "periods" or at least regular bleeding, and have given birth entirely by surprise. ‍

Yep, cryptic pregnancy is a thing

I had heard of them but was always a bit sceptical until it happened to someone I know. Didn't find out she was pregnant until about two weeks before she gave birth! She was in the middle of her A Levels at the time, a bright girl living a very ordinary sort of life. Washboard abs throughout, other symptoms were put down to another known illness. She'd been seeing doctors about another illness and they didn't pick up on it either. It was another teenage friend who joined the dots and suggested a pregnancy test.

 

[Cherwell]

It might be optimistic to think that someone living a chaotic lifestyle, as CM appears to have been, was tracking their cycles. I

I also know people who have had no cessation of "periods" or at least regular bleeding, and have given birth entirely by surprise. ‍

But were they "living a chaotic lifestyle" before they knew she was pregnant?
Wasn't the pregnancy the reason they embarked on a nomadic life?

 

[rightsaidfred]

But were they "living a chaotic lifestyle" before they knew she was pregnant?
Wasn't the pregnancy the reason they embarked on a nomadic life?

It's rather vague what they were up to before September but they were evicted from a flat in Eltham for rent arrears.

It's far from a definitive sign of a chaotic lifestyle, but not a sign of stability.

 

[kittythehare]

Yep, cryptic pregnancy is a thing

I had heard of them but was always a bit sceptical until it happened to someone I know. Didn't find out she was pregnant until about two weeks before she gave birth! She was in the middle of her A Levels at the time, a bright girl living a very ordinary sort of life. Washboard abs throughout, other symptoms were put down to another known illness. She'd been seeing doctors about another illness and they didn't pick up on it either. It was another teenage friend who joined the dots and suggested a pregnancy test.

i lso personally knew a case, girl was still size 8, had no idea she was pregnant when she went into labor and gave birth to a healthy child with no anomalies.
Crazy but true.

 

[kittythehare]

We don't actually know what the facts are regarding their lifestyle prior to vehicle fire.
We know almost nothing.