UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #4

[OceanElix]

Tattered clothes and bottles lay strewn on the ground next to the destroyed vehicle
(PA)

Inside burned out car ‘abandoned by on-the-run aristocrat, partner and tragic baby’

Constance Marten and her partner Mark Gordon deny manslaughter by gross negligence of the girl

www.independent.co.uk

Is that a bottle of what looks like Prosecco/Champagne low right of the photo and possibly a beer can middle top?
Speculation, maybe alcohol is the substance being abused, wine stains in the rental, bottles strewn from the burnt out car.

How did all those belongings even get strewn across the ground, were they frantically grabbing things out of the car and throwing them over the barrier whilst it was going up in flames? Sounds pretty scary.

Moo

 

[Seni]

The extremes could not be further apart between the two. Who knows how they met? Were they ever accepted by CMs family as a couple?

Understand with its us against the world. But why keep on popping out babies? The last child abandoned in hospital.

 

[ShadowPuppet]

The popping out babies is very common when other children are removed or relinquished. It’s a combination of things, but usually centred around the overwhelming desire to parent and the losses suffered (without giving themselves time to actually learn about themselves and solve the issues that prevented them parenting last time). It doesn’t feel to stable, healthy adults to make sense, but neither does chronic neglect.

It is interesting that these two came together, but I wonder if there was an element of joining together in unusual thinking? It sounds like CM father also had some less common lines of thought about the world.

I also wonder why the South Downs? I can think of more remote places. Perhaps it was just they - or one of them - knew it well?

 

[iamshadow21]

I also wonder why the South Downs? I can think of more remote places. Perhaps it was just they - or one of them - knew it well?

RSBM

Climate. It was the coldest time of the year and about the furthest south they could go without hopping in a boat.

MOO

 

[ShadowPuppet]

RSBM

Climate. It was the coldest time of the year and about the furthest south they could go without hopping in a boat.

MOO

Isn’t Cornwall our mildest southern area? Generally a couple of degrees warmer than the rest of the country. Lots of rugged remote places there too.

Equally, unless you go up north (where they did go, albeit for a short time in taxis and hotels), anywhere south is relatively mild and less likely to have snow etc.

I associate the South Downs with walkers, D of E expeditions and ancient woodland. They’re known to be quite well frequented by walkers and not particularly remote (though people have died on them in various situations). I’d have felt more likely to be seen there comparatively to other remote locations, as they remain quite popular in Winter. Then again, I used to live near them and walk them, so perhaps I feel more inclined to think of the higher number of walkers.

Edited to add: Just thought, perhaps could be the number of locations South Downs connect to with routes into towns? MOO

Climate and Weather - Weather in Cornwall

 

[iamshadow21]

Isn’t Cornwall our mildest southern area? Generally a couple of degrees warmer than the rest of the country. Lots of rugged remote places there too.

Equally, unless you go up north (where they did go, albeit for a short time in taxis and hotels), anywhere south is relatively mild and less likely to have snow etc.

I associate the South Downs with walkers, D of E expeditions and ancient woodland. They’re known to be quite well frequented by walkers and not particularly remote (though people have died on them in various situations). I’d have felt more likely to be seen there comparatively to other remote locations, as they remain quite popular in Winter. Then again, I used to live near them and walk them, so perhaps I feel more inclined to think of the higher number of walkers.

Climate and Weather - Weather in Cornwall

South Downs is much closer to London, which they'd come from, than Cornwall. If they'd not found somewhere they felt they could settle for a while, then they may have headed further west.

Though I am and always have been Australian, my partner is an expat and spent the first half dozen years of her life walking about the Downs, turning her ankles in rabbit holes and helping a neighbour collect cow pats for her garden. She still has close family there.

MOO

 

[Cardgame]

Is that a bottle of what looks like Prosecco/Champagne low right of the photo and possibly a beer can middle top?
Speculation, maybe alcohol is the substance being abused, wine stains in the rental, bottles strewn from the burnt out car.

How did all those belongings even get strewn across the ground, were they frantically grabbing things out of the car and throwing them over the barrier whilst it was going up in flames? Sounds pretty scary.

Moo

Might be wrong, but to me it looks like there are black bin bags in among that detritus, so maybe they broke or tore apart as they were pulled from the car, spilling the contents. I have used black bin liners to transport belongings when moving before, not necessarily rubbish.

Maybe some rubbish also pulled from the car if it was being used as accommodation? Eg looks like a bottle of antifreeze on the floor there too which you'd think might be in the boot? or maybe that's just where I keep mine because I have no idea what to do with it!!

 

[Cardgame]

Isn’t Cornwall our mildest southern area? Generally a couple of degrees warmer than the rest of the country. Lots of rugged remote places there too.

Equally, unless you go up north (where they did go, albeit for a short time in taxis and hotels), anywhere south is relatively mild and less likely to have snow etc.

I associate the South Downs with walkers, D of E expeditions and ancient woodland. They’re known to be quite well frequented by walkers and not particularly remote (though people have died on them in various situations). I’d have felt more likely to be seen there comparatively to other remote locations, as they remain quite popular in Winter. Then again, I used to live near them and walk them, so perhaps I feel more inclined to think of the higher number of walkers.

Climate and Weather - Weather in Cornwall

My speculation is that they originally went down that way to head out of the country, but upon realising CM had left her passport in the car, they ended up camping in a the closest rural location possible. By this point, according to them, they also had the petrol and the plans to burn 'the evidence', which would have required a rural location. MOO. Could be way off track, especially if the baby was still alive at this point.

However, one thing which does seem clear is that once they arrived in this area they did successfully evade authorities for a pretty long time. There don't seem to have been many sightings between arriving in this area and them being apprehended. Maybe because it was so darn cold, there were far less walkers than usual??

 

[CaptainNancy]

Presumably the South Downs because they had gone to Newhaven, presumably to try and get a ferry to France.

 

[Woodburnbay]

What I find unbelievable about this case is that the 2 fled with the baby because they were concerned that Social Services would not allow then to co exist with a new born baby.
yet the poor baby dies anyway.

Do we need far more intelligent people in social services so that a proper assessment can be made of risk.

Unfortunately the risk here was far greater to the baby than allowing it to stay with parents in a warm environment.

 

[Lolabear]

What I find unbelievable about this case is that the 2 fled with the baby because they were concerned that Social Services would not allow then to co exist with a new born baby.
yet the poor baby dies anyway.

Do we need far more intelligent people in social services so that a proper assessment can be made of risk.

Unfortunately the risk here was far greater to the baby than allowing it to stay with parents in a warm environment.

Going by the reported squalor they lived in prior to having victoria and going off grid I doubt she would've survived for long anyway. Her agony would just of gone on longer as they are quite obviously in no fit state to be parents

 

[Lolabear]

In the pictures of cm with he'd other children she looks clean, happy, well kept etc etc. Yet we hear from before victoria they lived in filth and left places disgusting etc. What went wrong I wonder?

 

[iamshadow21]

Going by the reported squalor they lived in prior to having victoria and going off grid I doubt she would've survived for long anyway. Her agony would just of gone on longer as they are quite obviously in no fit state to be parents

With oversight, however sporadic, she would have had a chance she didn't have when they went off-grid. If they hadn't gone off-grid, she could have been taken into care and survived, like her siblings survived.

MOO

 

[Lolabear]

With oversight, however sporadic, she would have had a chance she didn't have when they went off-grid. If they hadn't gone off-grid, she could have been taken into care and survived, like her siblings survived.

MOO

I meant if their car hadn't caught fire and they managed to avoid ss as they planned. Victoria's life would've been awful

 

[JTT]

Has anyone been able to lip-read the footage from Bolton bus station?

 

[Lucy6226]

What I find unbelievable about this case is that the 2 fled with the baby because they were concerned that Social Services would not allow then to co exist with a new born baby.
yet the poor baby dies anyway.

Do we need far more intelligent people in social services so that a proper assessment can be made of risk.

Unfortunately the risk here was far greater to the baby than allowing it to stay with parents in a warm environment.

To be fair Social Services would need to be aware of her pregnancy in the first place. This would have been made difficult by them moving around as local authority systems are not linked and requesting information from other local authorities can take weeks. Particularly when there is a complex history with the family.

CM would have been made aware that any future pregnancies would be assessed by social services. Hence why she did not seek medical attention for her or once Victoria was born.

Moo

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

What I find unbelievable about this case is that the 2 fled with the baby because they were concerned that Social Services would not allow then to co exist with a new born baby.
yet the poor baby dies anyway.

Do we need far more intelligent people in social services so that a proper assessment can be made of risk.

Unfortunately the risk here was far greater to the baby than allowing it to stay with parents in a warm environment.

For once, I don't think the problem here is SS. Unless they've wrongfully taken her previous children and therefore are perceived as an abusive authority by CM. I'm sensing that's not the case.

 

[JTT]

With oversight, however sporadic, she would have had a chance she didn't have when they went off-grid. If they hadn't gone off-grid, she could have been taken into care and survived, like her siblings survived.

MOO

If the SS had laid off, she could have survived too. MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

If the SS had laid off, she could have survived too. MOO

I doubt this. If they hadn't gone on the run but had managed to give birth to V in private and kept her, IMO inevitably that child would have also been removed. Because I believe whatever was going on with the previous children would recur. If they started over with new names, new location (in the UK) then chances are at some point the same issues would have arisen and that child would be flagged to child welfare agencies. If they'd have left the country, I can't even begin to imagine, unless they made it to a location where they could be a part of a supportive community where people co-parent and are highly involved in other's children. I'll bet there'd be trouble there too.

 

[Alyce]

When they refer to the first and second defendant on a joint charge it’s done alphabetically.

Thank you for that info.