UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #4

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I’d disagree. The majority of children removed are left with severe trauma because of how they were parented and the very fact other children were removed suggests baby Victoria would not be in with a high chance of long term survival.

JMOO, but hiding from SS does not mean you have to put your child in a bag for life (what about a coat and a sling) or dress them poorly (they went to shops before South Downs), if these things occurred. Yes, as I said before, it can become a cycle where fear of removal pushes parents into unsafe decisions, but they were already making unsafe decisions before with their other children. It’s a bit bonkers to have people protecting or excusing neglectful parents and saying let them crack on, it’s SS fault for chasing them.
 
Looking at the photo in the bus station I'm surprised the poor baby wasn't suffocated to death as her coat is totally zipped up with nowhere for air for the poor thing
I'm not sure it was totally zipped up in the rain - there may be about 6-9 inches unzipped at the top. Whether she has basic understanding of things like this will be something that can be explored if she takes the witness stand.

If (big Spartan if) the jury decides that they're sure that this is it, CM doesn't understand properly about breathing, and this is what caused Victoria's death, they may well convict her on one or more of the three causing harm to a baby charges, but it might be hard to convict MG, especially on the manslaughter charge.

Footnote: in South America it's normal for babies sleeping slung to their mothers' chests to be completely covered, including their heads, under special breathable blankets when the temperature is cool and perhaps the baby has a cold or something and their mothers want to be extra careful. (I was quite surprised when I first saw this.) These are always special baby blankets, though - never ordinary adult coats.
 
In the pictures of cm with he'd other children she looks clean, happy, well kept etc etc. Yet we hear from before victoria they lived in filth and left places disgusting etc. What went wrong I wonder?
MOO and I haven't worked in this area for a few years. However this was a common cycle. Once a baby/child/children are removed from the parents, there is often a downward spiral of mental health, having more children in the desperation to be able to keep them, and worsening mental health (and sometimes substance abuse) after each time. The end result looks something like this case, although usually without the physical running away, media, etc.

Often where SS deem there to be a person at risk to the unborn baby (usually a partner who has been convicted of a sex related crime) the baby is removed. Even if to the outside the family look clean, healthy, happy, with their life together etc. Even sometimes wealthy or at least financially secure. The mother would be able to keep custody of the baby if she cuts off all contact with the partner, and sometimes they allow an hour or two supervised access at a center. The mother may have to do courses and parenting classes to prove she is aware of the dangers her ex partner presents and if she is seen to stick up for him in any way or say anything positive about him, even if she leaves him, this is usually seen as a red flag / held against her.

I saw it time and time again, and the downward spiral is harrowing. Sometimes the mother would refuse to leave her partner as his crime was so long ago or she felt it didn't justify the extreme measures social services were using. Sometimes the mother would leave the partner and do the things required and still end up losing the baby. The first time you'd meet the mother you'd meet a happy, well kempt, 'normal' looking woman. The next time there would be mental health issues. The next time there would be more severe mental health issues, often unemployed or relying on benefits, issues at home such as uncleanliness, hoarding, living in refuges etc. Things that were never present before might begin cropping up - drinking, smoking, substance abuse, relationship breakdowns with family and friends.

The same women would come onto the postnatal ward, and you'd get to know them as it was their 3rd/4th/5th/6th baby. Each time their story was sadder, and each time they would leave without their baby.

This is something I suspected could be the case here, but upon reading that multiple children were taken at once rather than it starting with her first baby I didn't comment as it is more likely to be neglect or something else.

Anyway sorry for waffling, MOO and all that, and as I said I've been out of perinatal care for a few years so maybe (I desperately hope) things are better for these families these days. I suspect MH issues here are worse than they appear on the surface - MOO
 
If the SS had laid off, she could have survived too. MOO
Whilst I agree Victoria could potentially have survived, I think by this point her parents were traumatised and struggling with their own mental health from whatever events have occured over the years, that they really would have needed substantial support to be the parents they wanted to be and the parents Victoria needed. And I very, very much doubt they would have received that support. MOO
 
Whilst I agree Victoria could potentially have survived, I think by this point her parents were traumatised and struggling with their own mental health from whatever events have occured over the years, that they really would have needed substantial support to be the parents they wanted to be and the parents Victoria needed. And I very, very much doubt they would have received that support. MOO

I agree with this and it speaks to the statements both parents, separately, made to press when pleading for CM to return with the baby.

JMO
 
Is that a bottle of what looks like Prosecco/Champagne low right of the photo and possibly a beer can middle top?
Speculation, maybe alcohol is the substance being abused, wine stains in the rental, bottles strewn from the burnt out car.

How did all those belongings even get strewn across the ground, were they frantically grabbing things out of the car and throwing them over the barrier whilst it was going up in flames? Sounds pretty scary.

Moo
99.9% sure its a bottle of Magnum.
 
This poor baby spent her short life stuffed behind coats and inside a shopping bag! These two are :mad:



12:19pm

Now CCTV shows the couple entering German Doner Kebab.
Gordon can be seen taking the baby out from under his coat and hands her to Marten.

12:15pm

Further CCTV shows Marten unzip her coat and we can see the baby's head.
She keeps adjusting her hold on the baby.


12:08pm

Now CCTV shows Marten pacing outside Wilkinsons with the baby under her coat.
It then shows Gordon exiting a pharmacy and Marten seeing him and walking in the same direction.

12:07pm

We are now being shown CCTV of Marten and Gordon exiting Mr Palcu's taxi.
Marten can be seen in a burgundy coat with a red scarf wrapped around her head and carrying a red bag for life.
Gordon can be seen handing over the baby to Marten and she puts the baby under her coat.

[…]

11:42am

Colchester to London​

A statement is being read from Razuan Palcu who took the couple by taxi from Colchester to London.
Mr Palcu was approached by Marten who asked to be taken to East Ham.
He was asked to stop to "pick her husband up".
When he entered the car the man "unzipped his jacket and took a baby out and handed it to the woman".

 
We do not know why the other 4 children were removed. Much speculation, but we don't know.

We don't know why SS and the police were so high profile in their determination to locate CM and MG.

We cannot possibly know whether Victoria would have been safe had the car not caught fire and they had successfully escaped.

Undoubtedly the high profile search influenced their decision to go off grid (CM said as much in her police interview) but that was a decision, a choice, and like the judgement of Solomon it could be argued that at the point it became impossible to care for a tiny baby off grid that truly caring parents would have made a different decision. As CM also says she considered.

Also, they took off on ill-advised journeys without clothes for Victoria (presumably lost in the fire) before they knew they were at a centre of a media storm.

For those who have had bad experiences with SS, this is obviously triggering. But SS can't win. The majority of cases we hear about are where they are blamed for not intervening when some poor child has died as a result of cruelty or neglect. I have been involved with projects for and with Care Leavers and children in foster care, and their experiences and aftermath match what I see in the families of 5 friends and acquaintances who adopted children from care: adoption from birth would have helped prevent attachment disorder (after 2 years of supporting a drug addled mother to continue care and then a series of foster placements), from starvation (that the children aged 5 and 7 clearly remembered), from being thrown from a 2nd storey window aged 6, etc.

We just don't know.
 
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It is a 6 week trial.

The prosecution always go through absolutely everything. If they don't something may be used in appeal, or whatever. And we won't know until they sum up how it all fits together in their case. The trial I observed throughout had 6 days of phone logs pored over!
 
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It's hard to say what was already discarded on the side of the road and what wasn't but if one looks carefully there seems to be a pool of liquid from the bottle. It def looks like champagne with the indented bottom and yellow label.
Its a small brown bottle of magnum tonic wine, its not even remotely champagne bottle shaped and its brown not green.
 
Its a small brown bottle of magnum tonic wine, its not even remotely champagne bottle shaped and its brown not green.
I think we're looking at a different thing. Definitely an orange label and shaped like Prosecco/Champagne bottle. I do think this is from the wreckage but also remember all sorts of things are thrown from cars.
 
It is a 6 week trial.

The prosecution always go through absolutely everything. If they don't something may be used in appeal, or whatever. And we won't know until they sum up how it all fits together in their case. The trial I observed throughout had 6 days of phone logs pored over!
The CPS will already have disclosed to the defence all the evidence they intend to adduce, and, if they are playing by the rules, also all the other material they collected that might be helpful to the defence, so omitting to show some of it to the jury won't be used as grounds for appeal when the defence can bring it to court if they wish. I doubt the crown will sum up saying if you put together the way she's walking in the bus station video with the way he's raising his left arm in the Argos video, then in the crown's submission it's open and shut, guilty to manslaughter.

What could happen is the SS cack themselves when they find out what evidence the defence have got...but we shall see.

If it gets past half time, the position may be that the police prefer the defendants to take the stand, but the SS don't. This is total speculation. With the exception of a few people such as Donald Trump, bullies don't tend to like the limelight. Just suggesting once again it may be a mistake to lump the police together with the SS here.
 
Trials are about the Prosecution, and defence should they choose, bringing known facts to court. What happened, not 'why' is the main purpose.
It's all about causation - inferred causation.

There is loathing in the legal profession for expert witnesses of all kinds.
 
Maybe they genuinely thought they could get their other children back, or simply couldn't leave the country those children live in (pure speculation)

I don't think they thought they could get their other children back for a second, they clearly had decided to run and hide the pregnancy from SS before the car fire.
The fire obviously put a huge spanner in the works for them but they weren't sticking around regardless.

I guess it's possible they had in mind the long game where they kept this baby and cared for her so well that they could produce her in a couple of years and show proof of what great parents they had become, but that's not the impression I get. I don't feel like they could be that organised on their best day, seeing as they had 9 months to make a plan but only enacted it literally days before the birth!.

JMO
 
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