UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #4

[Quietey]

As they walk out of shot the words I hear are "Toots... I'm gonna ask you again.... are you upset"

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

Marten case police believe baby 'dead for some time' - BBC News
By all media accounts the police reported the body was already in decomposition.
If you research infant forensics, they decompose at a faster rate than juveniles or adults due to lower mass and bone mineral density. In as little as six days their organs liquify which can make time and manner of death difficult to determine.
Any link on this is graphic so I’ll leave it up to you to verify, therefore jmo.
Edited to add: The fresh placenta offered more forensics than the body in decomposition, including biological sex, pre term birth, low birth weight, abnormalities, infections, and diseases of the infant.
A practical guide to placental examination for forensic pathologists - PubMed
View attachment 407358
The review aims to discuss concepts, with illustrations, that forensic pathologists may not routinely focus on in death investigations that may either contribute or mask the cause of a fetal or neonatal death, or are associated with a recurrence risk. While it is recognized that many forensic facilities do not have formal guidelines for placental examination, involvement of local perinatal pathology services in cases is one way of obtaining additional specialist expertise.

I am a little behind so I apologise if this has already been said.
IIRC, the day after or maybe the day after that, LE said they would not talk and it was mentioned in various MSM that the placenta was being analysed. I did remark at the time, here, that I assumed to placenta would have been analysed a while back as LE had the placenta for over 6 weeks. Why would that analysis not of taken place before CM and MG were found? JMO

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

Thank you!

@Obergine writes in that post:



My ear isn't great for these things. I will refer to "W" and "M" for "woman" and "man" because if this video is submitted in evidence it will be up to a jury to decide who they are.

M "Have you got my wallet" <- doesn't sound right
...
W "Do you think we should move on to London then?" <- sounds right
M "Yeah" <- sounds right too
M ... "police" ... <- probably

General feel: W's thoughts on the matter they are discussing will probably carry more weight than M's. (Listen to the way M says "yeah".)

BUT

this feel may be contradicted by something in the earlier video, showing them walk from right to left, without bags. That footage is not in the D Mail article linked from that post, but it's in the D Mirror article I linked to above.

W looks in a hurry. She is practically hopping while she is waiting for M, and then she turns fast and strides onwards when he appears. Of course there are many reasons W might be in a hurry, e.g. she's cold, she's hungry, she needs to pee, her shoes are hurting, she wants to get back somewhere ASAP, her natural pace is fast.

M's words sound awfully like

M "Next time you keep in your place" <- not sure about this, but it could be that

??

I have awful hearing, and have had since I was a child (5% heaing one side and about 60% hearing the otherside, but I have learned to 'hear' tones and inflections to decipher what people say to me, I thought it might be valuable to someone who can hear more words than me, also I come from the South of England and understand the accents pretty well. I listened at full volume in headphones. For what its worth this is what I heard in the left to right video:

M: my wallet? - the inflection was definitely a question to me
W: Yeah
M: good - sounds relieved to me
W: to London - to me, it sounded like a statement, not a question
M: yeah - acknowledging her decision.

JMO
from the way they were talking to each other, meaning their tone and inflections, it felt to me like CM making decisions and for lack of a better word, in charge.

 

[JTT]

I am a little behind so I apologise if this has already been said.
IIRC, the day after or maybe the day after that, LE said they would not talk and it was mentioned in various MSM that the placenta was being analysed. I did remark at the time, here, that I assumed to placenta would have been analysed a while back as LE had the placenta for over 6 weeks. Why would that analysis not of taken place before CM and MG were found? JMO

As late as last Thursday the Guardian had this:

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: found baby ‘may have been dead for weeks’

Police say they have been unable to confirm gender of infant whose remains were found on Wednesday

www.theguardian.com

"It is not known whether the baby was born full-term or had any health problems."

(Unlike some other statements reported in the article, that's not a direct quote from the police.)

Examination of the placenta could possibly help with one or both of those questions.

From the CPS:

Gross Negligence Manslaughter | The Crown Prosecution Service

www.cps.gov.uk

(For gross negligence manslaughter to be proved,) "it is unnecessary for the breach of duty to have been the sole or even the main cause of death, provided it contributed significantly to the victim's death".

"In cases where there has been an omission to act, the prosecution must prove that the negligent failure to act was a substantial cause of death. Where there is evidence that after a certain time the deceased, regardless of any intervention, was more likely than not to die anyway, then failures to act beyond that point (i.e. the point when his condition became irreversible) cannot establish causation."

 

[DizzyBee]

As late as last Thursday the Guardian had this:

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: found baby ‘may have been dead for weeks’

Police say they have been unable to confirm gender of infant whose remains were found on Wednesday

www.theguardian.com

"It is not known whether the baby was born full-term or had any health problems."

(Unlike some other statements reported in the article, that's not a direct quote from the police.)

Examination of the placenta could possibly help with one or both of those questions.

From the CPS:

Gross Negligence Manslaughter | The Crown Prosecution Service

www.cps.gov.uk

(For gross negligence manslaughter to be proved,) "it is unnecessary for the breach of duty to have been the sole or even the main cause of death, provided it contributed significantly to the victim's death".

"In cases where there has been an omission to act, the prosecution must prove that the negligent failure to act was a substantial cause of death. Where there is evidence that after a certain time the deceased, regardless of any intervention, was more likely than not to die anyway, then failures to act beyond that point (i.e. the point when his condition became irreversible) cannot establish causation."

It should be quite easy to estimate gestation from the size/weight/condition of the placenta. Certainly whether Victoria was preterm or not. Although of course nutrition (or malnutrition), smoking, drug use, certain medical conditions, and even stress can play a part in this so it’s not going to be an exact science.
I would imagine that the placenta has already been examined very thoroughly. They may still be waiting on some genetic tests or similar but I would say that it’s 99% certain that they have at least preliminary results of these findings. I would say that they just aren’t releasing the outcomes to the press/public so as not to prejudice a trial/cause further speculation.

 

[JTT]

It should be quite easy to estimate gestation from the size/weight/condition of the placenta. Certainly whether Victoria was preterm or not. Although of course nutrition (or malnutrition), smoking, drug use, certain medical conditions, and even stress can play a part in this so it’s not going to be an exact science.
I would imagine that the placenta has already been examined very thoroughly. They may still be waiting on some genetic tests or similar but I would say that it’s 99% certain that they have at least preliminary results of these findings. I would say that they just aren’t releasing the outcomes to the press/public so as not to prejudice a trial/cause further speculation.

Yes. There is a spectrum that runs from the police making public statements, through the police giving unattributable press briefings, all the way to the police getting furious (but possibly not being able to do much about it) because the press have said or implied things (some true, some false) that the police would rather were not said. And parts of the spectrum probably overlap with others - a big example possibly being some information that was much mentioned in the press about the background of one of the defendants in this case, while the person was being sought but before there was even yet officially a criminal investigation. On one hand, information can be revealed about a person that encourages people to contact the police during the enquiry if they think they may have spotted that person. Perhaps this information may appear in many headlines, perhaps even so that almost everyone in the country knows it. On the other hand, the same information might have to be kept completely out of the press between the start of the sub judice period and the verdict. So we go from information being BLARED in headlines to being unable to be repeated.

 

[JuicyLucy]

To me it sounded like

Have you got my wallet?

Yeah

How much did you take - two…three hundred

Yeah

Funny isn’t it I don’t even hear london

I think it depends on the source each of us has accessed to listen to the recording, and how/where it was cut. This edit originates with the Daily Telegraph and it's clear both are mentioned - he mentions the money (personally I think he says five hundred) and then she mentions London... imo.

 

[Nikynoo]

just wondering - will there be an inquest in relation to the baby?

 

[everybodhi]

I am a little behind so I apologise if this has already been said.
IIRC, the day after or maybe the day after that, LE said they would not talk and it was mentioned in various MSM that the placenta was being analysed. I did remark at the time, here, that I assumed to placenta would have been analysed a while back as LE had the placenta for over 6 weeks. Why would that analysis not of taken place before CM and MG were found? JMO

One would think so, surely they have access to perinatal pathologists of which there are many in the UK, they are required since October 2022 to be available in the case of neonatal deaths at the parents request, but there’s a caveat, “if not referred to His Majesty’s (HM) Coroner”.

NHS England » Perinatal post-mortem investigation of fetal and neonatal deaths (England, Scotland and Wales)

 

[Nikynoo]

One would think so, surely they have access to perinatal pathologists of which there are many in the UK, they are required since October 2022 to be available in the case of neonatal deaths at the parents request, but there’s a caveat, “if not referred to His Majesty’s (HM) Coroner”.

NHS England » Perinatal post-mortem investigation of fetal and neonatal deaths (England, Scotland and Wales)

I am wondering though what damage the placenta sustained in the vehicle fire and the attempt to put the fire out.

 

[everybodhi]

I am wondering though what damage the placenta sustained in the vehicle fire and the attempt to put the fire out.

In my younger days, I was once in an old car that similarly caught fire, flames were coming from under the hood. The driver pulled over, (busy NJ turnpike entering NYC) and opened the hood which resulted in big flames shooting up, he quickly closed it (do NOT open the hood, do not pour water on an engine fire and get away from the car in case it explodes!).
Someone offered us a ride so all the passengers left to continue on to the show we were going to.
The fee from the impound lot was more than the value of an old car with a burnt out engine so it was ultimately abandoned. The things we had left in the car in our rush were good as new and the impound guy graciously allowed us to retrieve everything.
There were no legal charges.
I don’t think CM and MG intentionally lit a fire inside the vehicle, I’m pretty sure LE would have said that during their releases to the press if it were so. And they would have said if the placenta was damaged by fire or extinguisher, like the way they said the body was so decomposed they couldn’t determine sex. Jmo

How to Extinguish a Vehicle Fire - Fire Systems, Inc.
“Vehicle fires make up around 16 percent of the average 1.3 million fires reported to US fire departments each year.”

That’s 208,000 car fires

 

[JuicyLucy]

just wondering - will there be an inquest in relation to the baby?

I'm sure there will be, but it will be adjourned until after the conclusion of any criminal proceedings.

Coroners | The Crown Prosecution Service

 

[grey345]

To me it sounded like

Have you got my wallet?

Yeah

How much did you take - two…three hundred

Yeah

Funny isn’t it I don’t even hear london

I heard “three hundred” when I listened too

 

[wowiezowie]

I think it depends on the source each of us has accessed to listen to the recording, and how/where it was cut. This edit originates with the Daily Telegraph and it's clear both are mentioned - he mentions the money (personally I think he says five hundred) and then she mentions London... imo.

I can hear "Hand me back my wallet"

"How much did you use/lose £200 £300"

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I can hear "Hand me back my wallet"

"How much did you use/lose £200 £300"

Wow yes that's what I hear. She speaks with a very London street accent and I'm a Londoner.
I hear it as same -

C: f*ck!
M: 'hand me back my wallet'
C: 'yep'
M: 'Toots'
C: 'uh, did you use / lose two from three hundred, yeh?'
M: 'yep'
- scuffle noise -
M: something I can discern... sounds annoyed / irritable

 

[starlightstarbright]

It’s quite interesting, listening to the audio, I’d sort of envisioned them as being a tight, close couple given the situation they’ve landed themselves in together. But the way they talk to each other is, well, quite harsh and direct.

I know someone else has said that MG was very anti-drugs/alcohol, but MOO it’s sort of the way I’d expect two people to be bickering after quite a lot of drinks. I’m not saying I think that’s what’s happened, but they just have quite an interesting way of speaking to each other. It’s hard to reconcile with the reports of holding hands and blowing kisses in court.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

It’s quite interesting, listening to the audio, I’d sort of envisioned them as being a tight, close couple given the situation they’ve landed themselves in together. But the way they talk to each other is, well, quite harsh and direct.

I know someone else has said that MG was very anti-drugs/alcohol, but MOO it’s sort of the way I’d expect two people to be bickering after quite a lot of drinks. I’m not saying I think that’s what’s happened, but they just have quite an interesting way of speaking to each other. It’s hard to reconcile with the reports of holding hands and blowing kisses in court.

I know they were apparently coming back from a shopping mission and there's *no evidence whatsoever of drug use* so this is not about them, please believe me, but that conversation sounded all the world like one that would take place on the way back from a crack house not even joking, like 'how much did you get thru, two or three hundred?' yeah... it can be *that* quick to burn hundreds of pounds in a matter of minutes. I'm also struggling to imagine any other context in which someone can 'lose' / 'use' two to three hundred pounds that the other person is checking in with them before giving back the wallet.

 

[Amaz0nia]

I know they were apparently coming back from a shopping mission and there's *no evidence whatsoever of drug use* so this is not about them, please believe me, but that conversation sounded all the world like one that would take place on the way back from a crack house not even joking, like 'how much did you get thru, two or three hundred?' yeah... it can be *that* quick to burn hundreds of pounds in a matter of minutes. I'm also struggling to imagine any other context in which someone can 'lose' / 'use' two to three hundred pounds that the other person is checking in with them before giving back the wallet.

Im a south east londoner and sometimes ‘lose’ is a slang for spend…eg how much yah lose? (How much did you spend)

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Im a south east londoner and sometimes ‘lose’ is a slang for spend…eg how much yah lose? (How much did you spend)

Right! I didn't know that (I'm north of the river LOL) but thanks for the info and IMO then that's definitely what she said 'lose' as in spent. Maybe they spent a couple hundred quid in the shop but whut the heck would they be buying in a late night store?

 

[gerbil]

Depends on the shop, I guess.
Ones open later at night often price at a premium - you could probably get a small house for the price of a couple of ginsters and a can of pop at some.