UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #5

[rightsaidfred]

The lady on 16th Feb states she thinks the baby being carried was dead, but CM said Victoria died between 9th-11th Jan??? Surely a baby that had been dead for 5-6 weeks would look a lot different to a pale baby with a wobbly head? I'm very confused

I agree

A few thoughts on local stuff....

Taking a taxi from Whitechapel to the Enfield Tesco makes no sense. It's a long way (45 min maybe, up to an hour), and Enfield isn't nice, nor on the way to anywhere they seemed to want to go. There's a big Sainsbury's in Whitechapel if they needed a supermarket, and several other big supermarkets in much easier reach.

Both Whitechapel and Enfield have significant populations of homeless and drug-takers. Whitechapel, more street people/street dealers. Enfield, more drug houses, and some of the bigger dealer operations probably have supply centres up there I would say. Maybe one way to describe the Whitechapel/Enfield relationship, drugwise, would be retail/wholesale.

If they were familiar with east london and had engaged with social services/homeless support etc in the past, I'm not surprised they went to whitechapel. It's a bit of a hub for support services, there's a big hospital there, several hostels and shelters etc. So if they were considering trying to find a bed, that would be a good choice, and likely known to them. Alternatively, they would also know the street homeless population would help them blend in.

However, the trip to Enfield makes me suspicious, given the main link I can think of between the two locations. As do the 30 phones.

I wonder if Argos had proved insufficient for the camping gear, and they decided to head to Decathlon - which is a big box sports retailer that does lots of camping gear. There's one very near that Tesco.

Of course the counter argument to that would be the nearer branch of Decathlon in Surrey Quays, which also happens to be located right by a Tesco Extra... but being a bit chaotic, they could easily have forgotten that one existed.

Maps attached for those unfamiliar with the area; the x is Whitechapel

 

[Smccat]

Breaking News from 'the trial' podcast, and for once it's good news!

The cat in the cat box survived and was rescued!

Yaaaassss Bobby!! I’m yet to listen but so pleased to hear this ! I hope it’s living it’s best life

 

[Nikynoo]

Also learned from the podcast that the two female witnesses heard yesterday are related. The park is the busiest park in Brighton and the second witness cannot be sure that it was Marten and Gordon she saw.

 

[Willowy]

I also just came on here after listening to the podcast to say the cat was found alive!

Not much more to add or discuss now until Monday. But one question - I don't remember anyone else mentioning this here, but I've seen elsewhere online that some of the recovered possessions from the car, photographed in The Mail, are in a police custody bag? (Plastic bags used to store people's belongings in when they've been arrested and being kept in custody). Looks like it contains a load of rubbish, dirty cloths(?) and packets of tablets (vitamin d supplements?) I assume the items were found inside the bag at the scene, and a personal belongings bag normally issued in custody wouldn't been used as an evidence bag by police?

 

[Schlitze]

The "hard ground area" on Coldean Lane where the witness spotted the blue tent on here way Asda, you can see the pylon at the top right. She said the metal gate was open which she thought was unusual

 

[Cardgame]

I'm not so sure that the conditions on the South Downs, from the baby's point of view, were much different than she had already been exposed to.
In both cases, since birth, she seems to have been held zipped inside a parent's coat, or in a plastic bag or a thin buggy with small duvet thrown on top of her and nothing beneath. I may have missed it, but don't recall any witness describing her being fed, she does not seem to have been adequately dressed.
MG's reported statement about her condition says she was "well nourished" which is not saying "fed" nor did he expand on this with some information about fed on what, or when, by whom, and where was any nourishment obtained? Baby feeding is surely a big and regular item at this stage in life?
Google tells me that babies are born well nourished and that some newborns can, and do, survive a number of days before their first feed, that cold is their greatest threat and that they quickly lose energy and succumb in the face of hypothermia.
I don't think MG and CM's guilt in this case only starts with their time on the South Downs.

I agree with you but I got the impression that the defence were arguing otherwise.

I might be wrong tho. It's taking me a long time to get my head around the complexities.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I doubt there's any kind of a drug connection (usually cat litter is just cat litter), but those who wish to explore the possibility may recall that in a text to the owner of the somewhat remote Haltwhistle cottage CM said she intended to tell her "friends" about it.

The owner of the cottage left some chocolates and prosecco for her guests, which CM thanks her for. This presumably explains what is apparently a prosecco bottle at the car scene on the M61. If so, it seems they didn't finish the bottle. I don't think they are druggies, alkies, or any other kind of substance abusers, or involved in the drugs economy, even if they did travel from one part of London to another part of that city for what remain unknown reasons and have a fair few burner phones on them.

Inside couple's dirty rented holiday home before going on the run with baby

Constance Marten and her lover Mark Gordon are accused of the manslaughter of Victoria who, the Old Bailey has heard, was found dead in a supermarket 'bag for life'

www.mirror.co.uk

Good catch

Is it possible the 'burner phones' were just all their old phones, going back in time, that they'd kept over the years ie, not traded in and not thrown away. I have quite the collection myself.

 

[Schlitze]

Where did they get the Peugeot 206 from? The Suzuki broke down in Thorne. Baby most likely born in the hotel in Lymm

 

[Alyce]

Good catch

Is it possible the 'burner phones' were just all their old phones, going back in time, that they'd kept over the years ie, not traded in and not thrown away. I have quite the collection myself.

yes I think that’s the most likely explanation

 

[Henrymoggington]

Where did they get the Peugeot 206 from? The Suzuki broke down in Thorne. Baby most likely born in the hotel in Lymm

Why do you say baby most likely born at hotel in Lymm? What links it? Thank you

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

yes I think that’s the most likely explanation

God forbid the police search my home, they're going to say I have 20 burner phones! I still have my handsets and chargers from the 90s!

 

[rightsaidfred]

Good catch

Is it possible the 'burner phones' were just all their old phones, going back in time, that they'd kept over the years ie, not traded in and not thrown away. I have quite the collection myself.

I'm entirely unconvinced myself. I think "burner phone" has quite a specific meaning, of phones that are cheap and intended for binning after a short period of time to hinder the authorities in their abilities to track you.

They weren't paranoid - the authorities really were out to get them and take their baby.

Honestly if you know you're evading the authorities, then buying a batch of burner phones is quite a sensible thing to do. I'd do the same thing.

Where did they get the Peugeot 206 from? The Suzuki broke down in Thorne. Baby most likely born in the hotel in Lymm

Unstated, but people do sell cars on Facebook, Gumtree etc. A friend had a rather unsettling experience where, a few hours after listing her banger on Facebook marketplace, four eastern European men turned up at 11pm and paid the full asking price in cash without asking any real questions or test driving.

She did wonder if she was going to get a knock on the door from the police after it was linked to a crime, but she never did!

 

[Cardgame]

God forbid the police search my home, they're going to say I have 20 burner phones! I still have my handsets and chargers from the 90s!

I'm entirely unconvinced myself. I think "burner phone" has quite a specific meaning, of phones that are cheap and intended for binning after a short period of time to hinder the authorities in their abilities to track you.

They weren't paranoid - the authorities really were out to get them and take their baby.

Honestly if you know you're evading the authorities, then buying a batch of burner phones is quite a sensible thing to do. I'd do the same thing.



Unstated, but people do sell cars on Facebook, Gumtree etc. A friend had a rather unsettling experience where, a few hours after listing her banger on Facebook marketplace, four eastern European men turned up at 11pm and paid the full asking price in cash without asking any real questions or test driving.

She did wonder if she was going to get a knock on the door from the police after it was linked to a crime, but she never did!

And the fact is, they did take those phones with them in the car. So they can't date back that long, unless of course they had been living in a car for a long time and transferred everything from the Suzuki to the Peugeot without discarding anything. Even then, it's months not years.

I think all the options are possible: hoarding, crime, scam, paranoia.

I wonder if we will find out more about them from the trial since they seem to be part of evidence?

 

[Schlitze]

Why do you say baby most likely born at hotel in Lymm? What links it? Thank you

Fits with the timeline, they went from Lymm to a hotel in Salford, fled there with newborn and then the Peugeot bust into flames on the way to Liverpool..zig zagging around aimlessly. Another question is what was the rotting smell in the hotel room in Harwich?

 

[Parker Knoll]

I’m guessing the trench foot feet tbh !

 

[ShadowPuppet]

Yes, definitely could be trench foot. Equally, if CM had no medical assistance during birth, she could have torn and that could smell and be infected. Usually if you tear but cant clean and be sewn up very quickly after birth, they prescribe antibiotics in hospital. They’d both also been in proximity to a (suggested to be potentially decomposing) placenta.

 

[Amaz0nia]

What does it make you suspicious of? Something to do with illegal drugs and organised crime, I'm guessing.

I think their mistake was not leaving the country earlier, at say 32 weeks into the pregnancy at the latest, allowing for premature birth and other snafus. Or 28 to allow time to settle, at least after a fashion. The biggest issue? Almost certainly money. See the condition of the car.

Even on 19 December the police in Sheffield were recording she might be pregnant, which rather than her accompanying him to the station and an officer thinking "The female appeared on visual assessment to be in somewhat of a pregnant state" is probably a Sino-whispered form of "There was already a watch out".

Why haven't the police or CPS (if indeed it's their side that's leaking the photos - I'm not wholly convinced it's not the defence) handed the PA a photo of the 30 phones? Instead we get photos including ones of nappies, a dressing gown, some sanitary pads, a bag of jewellery, and a LEZ fine doc showing CM's address.

The photos arnt being leaked-theyve been shown to the jury and released to the media/public domain..im not getting all this leaked business…?
MG had no passport and hadnt even applied for one, and for those who say its easy for a black male to just travel on a fake passport is talking nonsense. Maybe they could have taken the ferry to northern ireland but thats about it without relevant ID etc.

 

[irnbru]

I'm a little confused by so many people's apparent surprise/ shock that CM and MG seemed to make so many illogical, irrational choices and decisions. Even if they were usually perfectly sensible people (which to be frank nothing we have been told so far suggests), birth can make the sanest, calmest, most responsible person feel and behave totally differently. Wherever and whenever she actually did give birth, she had no recovery. She was on the move, trying to hide herself and her partner and their baby, having just given birth, physically exhausted, bleeding heavily, dealing with the emotional and mental maelstrom of the immense and immediate hormonal changes that birth brings. It is genuinely hard enough to be somewhat rational when you are in your clean, safe, warm home or hospital surrounded by professional help and people who love you. The absolute madness of their actions doesn't really surprise me in that context.

None of that means in any way that what they did was OK. It's just that I can see how what is clearly utterly stupid, dangerous, wrong and doomed might not have seemed to someone in her situation at that point.

 

[InstantCoffee]

Hi I'm very new around these parts although have lurked for a long time. Decided to sign up as this case has been at the forefront of my mind for a long time.

I think that religion may hold a big piece of the puzzle here. As we know CM was a member of the TB Joshua cult many years ago. I think that while escaping it she still probably held on to a lot of her 'Christian' beliefs (pure speculation) and was looking to fill that 'God Shaped Hole' again. I believe that MG perhaps came to her rescue in that respect.

I've been doing a bit of reading around 'The Local Church', the organisation who published the Bible found in the car. Why would they have that edition if they didn't have some link? It's not an easy edition to come across. The Local Church tries to separate members from their families, they also follow a lot of the practices of the Plymouth Brethren. I used to have Plymouth Brethren neighbours... they considered themselves, 'in the world but not of it' and were a very strict sect. If they did have these beliefs it would account for a lot of the 'us against the world' mentality.

It's also completely anecdotal but of the few aristocratic / wealthy boarding school people I have known - being Born Again has been quite a common feature. Alpha Courses etc. One even joined the clergy.

 

[dotr]

Hi I'm very new around these parts although have lurked for a long time. Decided to sign up as this case has been at the forefront of my mind for a long time.

I think that religion may hold a big piece of the puzzle here. As we know CM was a member of the TB Joshua cult many years ago. I think that while escaping it she still probably held on to a lot of her 'Christian' beliefs (pure speculation) and was looking to fill that 'God Shaped Hole' again. I believe that MG perhaps came to her rescue in that respect.

I've been doing a bit of reading around 'The Local Church', the organisation who published the Bible found in the car. Why would they have that edition if they didn't have some link? It's not an easy edition to come across. The Local Church tries to separate members from their families, they also follow a lot of the practices of the Plymouth Brethren. I used to have Plymouth Brethren neighbours... they considered themselves, 'in the world but not of it' and were a very strict sect. If they did have these beliefs it would account for a lot of the 'us against the world' mentality.

It's also completely anecdotal but of the few aristocratic / wealthy boarding school people I have known - being Born Again has been quite a common feature. Alpha Courses etc. One even joined the clergy.

Welcome to Ws @InstantCoffee, i totally agree with you!