UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #5

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Thanks for the reply. Since she claims to have slept for seemingly substantial period of time then woke up to find the baby passed away, then I would speculate this still wouldn't excuse the endangerment of such coldness. Also cannot prove baby wasn't crushed / suffocated, although pathology shows no broken bones or injuries (to what remains).

I feel like an adult could die within a few hours of falling asleep in those conditions and I know someone who had to have limbs amputated after bunking down outside after being on a bender. JMO MOO.
(BBM)
The defence doesn't have to prove anything. Although nothing broken probably supports no crushing.

The evidence is circumstantial and extremely flimsy. On the harm charges, that is.
If the judge takes part in some plea bargain talk, offering a sentence of less than the time they've already spent inside, on the non-registration offence only, with everything else dropped, it could all be over by noon on Monday.

They might not like it, but they might decide a guilty plea to non-reg and going free is preferable to ~2-3 more years inside for perversion of the course of justice (plus non-reg, but probably concurrent and topped by PCJ).

Goodness knows what Martha Bourne would say to the cameras but she'd keep it short.

That said, the optics of not coming down hard on those who keep their baby's body and who consider DIY cremation or burial, might be considered suboptimal.

In another place, someone was suggesting it was inhuman to burn a baby's body. I don't know what they think happens to most dead babies' bodies in this country. In any case, CM couldn't do it.

"This highly exceptional case resulting from a set of extremely egregious extraordinary circumstances that we will probably never see again" might be how they play it. Then maybe something about social media.

Anyway, see you all on Monday. (Or sooner if more material appears before then.) Everyone have a good weekend!
 
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That picture is not from today. He was wearing a shirt and tie and she wore a floral blouse
I'm new to this site as of the last few days. Is it normal for them to draw sketches and describe their outfits every day?

I've seen sketches in the media before but didn't realise it was a daily thing. Why drawings rather than photos? Why describe their outfits constantly?
 
A few thoughts on local stuff....

Taking a taxi from Whitechapel to the Enfield Tesco makes no sense. It's a long way (45 min maybe, up to an hour), and Enfield isn't nice, nor on the way to anywhere they seemed to want to go. There's a big Sainsbury's in Whitechapel if they needed a supermarket, and several other big supermarkets in much easier reach.

Both Whitechapel and Enfield have significant populations of homeless and drug-takers. Whitechapel, more street people/street dealers. Enfield, more drug houses, and some of the bigger dealer operations probably have supply centres up there I would say. Maybe one way to describe the Whitechapel/Enfield relationship, drugwise, would be retail/wholesale.

If they were familiar with east london and had engaged with social services/homeless support etc in the past, I'm not surprised they went to whitechapel. It's a bit of a hub for support services, there's a big hospital there, several hostels and shelters etc. So if they were considering trying to find a bed, that would be a good choice, and likely known to them. Alternatively, they would also know the street homeless population would help them blend in.

However, the trip to Enfield makes me suspicious, given the main link I can think of between the two locations. As do the 30 phones.
In any other criminal proceedings, the combination of a neighbourhood just off the M25 and a stash of 30+ burner phones would scream County Lines to me, but if that's where you're going with this I'd say you're barking up the wrong tree. Running a County Lines operation takes organisation, which these two conspicuously lack imho, collaboration, which they seem to have avoided, and you don't do it with a baby and a cat in tow (I assume).

The 'burner' phones say paranoia to me, especially given that the notes posted upthread seem to suggest they suspected some kind of 'backchannel' between CM's family and social services.

jmoo
 
I'm new to this site as of the last few days. Is it normal for them to draw sketches and describe their outfits every day?

I've seen sketches in the media before but didn't realise it was a daily thing. Why drawings rather than photos? Why describe their outfits constantly?

It does somewhat depend on the reporter/media outlet as to whether or not the clothing of the defendants is described in any detail ( or at all ).

Photos are not allowed in Court, that's why we have to rely on sketches from Court appointed artists.
 
I'm updating the previous timeline. Changes are bolded by me. Sources are as before, plus the new ones listed below

- 1974 - MG born in Birmingham, the youngest of 7 children, to mum Sylvia
- ~1985 - MG, 11, and family move to Hollywood, Florida
- 26th May 1987 - CM born, lives at Crichel Down, a stately home in Dorset. Her parents are Napier and Virginie Marten (nee Camu, later de Selliers)
- 1989 - MG convicted of rape, age 14
- 1996 - Napier Marten, CM's father, leaves the family, heads to Australia, and leaves behind his 'materialistic' life. He variously has an out-of-body experience with Aborigines, goes whale watching, lives in a lorry, works as a chef and trains in Indian head massage. Unknown when he returned to the UK, but it's 2013 at the latest.
- 2005 (presumed) - CM leaves school - St Mary's Shaftesbury
- 6-18 months in 2006-7 (dates unclear, reports vary) - CM joins TB Joshua's SCOAN cult in Nigeria, which is later linked to sex abuse. Friends report she's not the same afterwards.
- 2008 - CM starts studying Arabic and Middle Eastern Studies at the University of Leeds
- Jan 2009 - CM listed as Tatler 'Babe of the Month'
- 2010 - MG released after 20 years and deported to UK
- 2010-11 - CM on a year abroad in Cairo, studying Arabic. She was, presumably, there when the Arab Spring / Egyptian Revolution happened in Cairo in Jan-Feb 2011. A friend, Noisette Tahoun, she met during this time, and stayed in touch with afterwards, later suggests she had a history of unhealthy relationships, referring to a relationship with a "vulgar" man, and that "when she falls in love she doesn't listen to anyone". It's unclear who or when this vulgar man was.
- 2012 - CM graduates from Leeds with a 2:1
- Aug 2012-June 2013 - CM works as a researcher for Al Jazeera in London, and pitches an idea for a documentary about TB Joshua
- 2013 - CM's childhood stately home at Crichel Down is sold. CM's father reported to be working as a tree surgeon, having passed the estate on early to his eldest son. At the time of CM's disappearance, he is reported to be a film and music producer.
- June-2013-14 - CM works in three short term jobs, two lasting less than a month and one lasting three months; appears to be out of work
- 2014 - CM does a NCTJ course in court reporting. I think this is possible a MOOC rather than anything terribly in depth.
- 2016 - CM leaves E15 Acting School and is listed as a graduate. It is unclear what year she started in - it could have been a second BA starting in 2013 (which would explain her work history) or an MA starting 2015.
- 2016 - CM and MG meet in unclear circumstances, but MG is reported to live near her and be working as a labourer. CM rapidly starts to cut off family and friends.
- June 2017 - CM pregnant, presents at a hospital in London, seeking antenatal care for the first time, says she's living in a campervan
- Sept 2017 - SS issues an alert because they can't locate her
- late 2017 - CM goes to a hospital in Wales in early labour, fake Irish accent, claims to be a traveller called Isabella O'Brien, and living in a campervan nearby. She says she lives in Leeds but is avoiding her family. MG pretends to be a friend, Mr Aymer, borrowing a surname from CM's sister-in-law.
- unspecified time later, it emerges they were living in a flimsy festival style tent with black bin bags and bottles of urine.
- Interim care order made, and CM and the first baby (FF) go into a mother and baby foster care placement. CM warned about the danger of falling asleep with baby on her. It's unclear if she leaves this foster placement with FF, or when GG is born.
- Jan 2020 - local authority starts care proceedings
- 4 Feb 2020 - CM posts a facebook album with three children entitled "my love sprogs", with different children labelled bty / cof / dav. IMO she posted that in the hope that it would make it easier for the children to find her on social media when they're older. Many of her facebook friends express surprise that she has any children at all. One of the comments suggests that a picture is taken in Ilford, East London.
- Some point between Jan and June 2020 - baby HH is born
- June 2020 - MG and CM refuse a placement in a residential unit, so an emergency care and separation order is made for all three children.
- Unknown date around this time - CM and MG are evicted from a property in Ilford.
- August 2020 - MG and CM are reported to be living on the Coldharbour Estate, Greenwich / Eltham, though it's unknown when they moved in. Neighbours report shouting, and the couple spending long periods of time elsewhere. NB: I believe the same property is variously referred to as being on the "Coldharbour Estate, Greenwich" and "in Eltham", though there is a possiblity there were two homes very close together.
- May 2021 - CM pregnant again with baby II, refuses entry to a social worker, SS arrange a scan, CM disappears and claims she's having private healthcare. Date of birth unclear, but she later leaves hospital without II, despite having been told that if she does that the baby will be recorded as abandoned. The next day she returns to the hospital but is upset to be refused entry because she wouldn't take a covid test. She tells SS that she and MG are 'naturalists' who disagree with any medical intervention.
- August 2021, CM's brother Max Marten marries Ruth Aymer, and the wedding is featured in Vogue. CM is nowhere to be seen due to the estrangement.
- 28 Jan 2022 - care and placement orders made for all four children (adopted, or SGO, presumably) at which point they will have known that they have lost all hope of getting those children back.
- March / April(?) 2022 CM pregnant again, conceals pregnancy
- August / September 2022 (sources differ) - MG and CM withdraw £15,000 cash, are evicted, and leave their property in Coldharbour Estate Greenwich / Eltham (they were evicted, but IMO: this coincides with when her bump started to show). They weren't paying rent, and left smoke damage and a collapsed ceiling behind them.
- September - December 2022 - live a nomadic lifestyle, staying in a series of Airbnbs

- 19 Dec 2022 - MG reports to a police station in Sheffield, presumably as part of his sex offender licence conditions.
- 20-26 Dec 2022 - CM & MG stay in holiday cottage in Northumberland
- 22 Dec - CM receives £15,590 from trust fund
- 24 Dec 2022 - CM claims Victoria was born, though this is disputed.
- 26 Dec 2022 - MG reports to a police station in Leeds
- 28 Dec 2022 - Car, a Peugeot 206, breaks down on M61 Greater Manchester (the podcast states this was a Suzuki in M18 Yorkshire). Recovery crew think they're living in the car but don't see a baby. Car towed to Leeds.
- 3 Jan 2023 - CM receives £3400 from a different trust fund
- 4 Jan 2023 - CM & MG check into hotel in Lymm, Cheshire and then later into a different hotel in Manchester
- 5 Jan 2023 - Peugeot 206 car catches fire on the M61 near J4 Bolton, around 6.30pm CM and MG depart leaving behind a passport, placenta, 30 'burner' phones, bible, clothes, 5 used nappies, and a cat in a box. The manhunt begins. Local man called Waiwai Balai gives them a lift to Bolton city centre. 20.02 spotted on CCTV at Bolton Bus Interchange. Take a taxi from Bolton to Liverpool, then a separate taxi from near Liverpool Royal Hospital to Harwich. Speculation is that, as both Liverpool and Harwich are ports, they are trying to leave the country but are hamstrung because MG doesn't have a passport and CM lost hers in the car fire.
- 6 Jan 2023 - CM and MG check in at 3am in Premier Inn Harwich. They move to the Fryatt hotel that night.
- 7 Jan 2023 - Check out of hotel in Harwich at 7am, then take a taxi to Colchester, then a taxi to East Ham, where they are seen 10.30-12.30. They take a taxi to Whitechapel Road, arriving at 6.15pm. Eat a meal at a restaurant on Brick Lane. Baby seen moving. MG buys a buggy at Argos, along with some camping gear. Try to get a taxi, fail, dump buggy, put baby in Lidl bag.
- 8 Jan 2023 - Shortly after midnight they ask taxi driver Abdirisakh Mohamud to take them to Tesco Extra Enfield. CM claims to be a Muslim using a hood and facemask as a hijab. MG claims to be doing the same because of a hair problem. The taxi driver becomes uneasy and drops the couple off prematurely on Green Lanes - presumably around the Green Lanes / Allison Road junction as they then catch another taxi, driven by Hasan Guzel, departing at 1.25am. During the journey, her phone pings and she asks to change the destination from Portsmouth to Newhaven. The baby is heard "meowing". They arrive at Newhaven at 4.56am. Seen sheltering from rain under an underpass around 6am. CM buys snacks at Texaco. 6.15am - seen walking towards fields with bag and tent.
- 9-11 Jan 2023 - CM claims baby died, changing her story during questioning.
- 12 Jan, early hours - CM purchases petrol and snacks from Texaco. She later claims this was because she considered cremating the baby.
- 19 Jan - Napier Marten issues appeal for CM to turn herself in
- 21 Jan - Karen Satchell, half sister of MG, goes to press saying he was wrongly convicted of rape

- 16 Jan 2023 - 11.45am Nicholas Frost, a dog walker sees tent and MG getting out of it at Stanmer Park Nature Reserve. It is not there a week later.
- 8 Feb - Virginie de Selliers, CM's mum and a psychotherapist, issues an appeal for her to come forward
- 16/17 Feb 2023 - seen near Hollingbury Golf Course with a buggy but no baby
- 17 Feb - tent seen Coldean Lane / Stanmer Park, Brighton (Coldean Lane runs through the park). Sighting in Stanmer Park around midday by witness Mary Thomsen.
- 18 Feb - sighting of CM and MG around Coldean Lane, with CM appearing to have something under her jacket
- 19 Feb - CM and MG seen in Stanmer Park with blue tent, and a 'floppy headed' baby with no clothes. The witness, Pauline Mason, states in court that the baby was so pale she believes it was already dead.
-
19 Feb - MG's mother Sylvia, who lives in Florida, goes to the papers saying he's a 'good boy', that he and CM had married in secret some time ago (no evidence of this is ever produced) and suggesting they could have been kidnapped.
- 20 Feb - CM and MG seen scavenging in bins around Hollingbury Golf Course
- 22 Feb - CM and MG attend Brighton Food Bank. They receive some food, but don't ask for baby items, which are available.
- 27 Feb 2023 - CM and MG go to Mulberry's Convenience Store and buy £20 worth of food in cash but no baby items. Shortly afterwards, they are arrested in Brighton, 9.35pm, smelling 'very unpleasant'. They refuse to tell police where the baby is.
- 1 March 2023 - Baby Victoria's remains found, so decomposed that the sex could not be identified visually and the post mortem could not identify a cause of death

Sources: as before, but the additional sources for the update are as follows

Constance & partner seen at food bank without baby days before arrest







Constance Marten: Taxi driver recalls 'uneasy feeling' about couple


‘Beyond painful’: Dad of runaway aristocrat pleads with daughter to turn herself in


The lady on 16th Feb states she thinks the baby being carried was dead, but CM said Victoria died between 9th-11th Jan??? Surely a baby that had been dead for 5-6 weeks would look a lot different to a pale baby with a wobbly head? I'm very confused
 
I'm new to this site as of the last few days. Is it normal for them to draw sketches and describe their outfits every day?

I've seen sketches in the media before but didn't realise it was a daily thing. Why drawings rather than photos? Why describe their outfits constantly?
Because cameras aren't allowed. The artist makes notes while inside the courtroom and then sketches quickly outside the courtroom afterwards
 
I'm new to this site as of the last few days. Is it normal for them to draw sketches and describe their outfits every day?

I've seen sketches in the media before but didn't realise it was a daily thing. Why drawings rather than photos? Why describe their outfits constantly?

We aren't allowed cameras in court in the UK, they have a court artist who draws bad sketches that look nothing like the defendants and always make them look old and ugly.
As for describing what they are wearing, no idea, probably the same reason the papers have to tell us the value of someone's house :rolleyes:
 
(BBM)
The defence doesn't have to prove anything. Although nothing broken probably supports no crushing.

The evidence is circumstantial and extremely flimsy. On the harm charges, that is.
If the judge takes part in some plea bargain talk, offering a sentence of less than the time they've already spent inside, on the non-registration offence only, with everything else dropped, it could all be over by noon on Monday.

They might not like it, but they might decide a guilty plea to non-reg and going free is preferable to ~2-3 more years inside for perversion of the course of justice (plus non-reg, but probably concurrent and topped by PCJ).

Goodness knows what Martha Bourne would say to the cameras but she'd keep it short.

That said, the optics of not coming down hard on those who keep their baby's body and who consider DIY cremation or burial, might be considered suboptimal.

In another place, someone was suggesting it was inhuman to burn a baby's body. I don't know what they think happens to most dead babies' bodies in this country. In any case, CM couldn't do it.

"This highly exceptional case resulting from a set of extremely egregious extraordinary circumstances that we will probably never see again" might be how they play it. Then maybe something about social media.

Anyway, see you all on Monday. (Or sooner if more material appears before then.) Everyone have a good weekend!

Apologies if I'm asking something obvious but how do you know what the evidence is?

Haven't they only just started presenting it?

This is what I keep wondering.
 
A description of what defendants are wearing can sometimes give a clue to whether they have support from family etc.

Having said this, there are also charities who assist to help that people have a decent set of clothes to appear in court in. As it certainly does 'say' something if the defendant turns up in prison issue items.
 
Apologies if I'm asking something obvious but how do you know what the evidence is?

Haven't they only just started presenting it?

This is what I keep wondering.
That's a good question. I was only giving my opinion and speculating on the basis of reports of how the Crown described their case in their lengthy opening speech (including the reference to the forensics report saying they don't know the physical cause of death and the way they said they were very iffy about the dates of either birth or death), and reports on the evidence so far.

It's not impossible that things will change and some kind of direct, i.e. non-circumstantial, evidence will be brought which knocks the defence out, showing actual neglect, or worse, rather than letting it be supposed. But if all the Crown are doing is setting the stage before they get to their killer witness, they're taking a long time about it.

At the moment, their timeline seems to have a month-long hole in it.

Also it seems more likely to me that rather than the judge or counsel having other matters than this trial to attend to today and tomorrow, what's actually happening is extended legal argument in the absence of the jury.

Last (again, only opinion) the inclusion of three different harm charges on the indictment may suggest that the Crown always had in mind a possible plea bargain. If the indictment goes to the jury as it is, the judge will definitely instruct them that for example if you think the defendants may possibly be guilty of manslaughter, or even that they are probably guilty of it, but you can't be sure that they are guilty, that does NOT in itself mean you should convict on one of the lesser charges. He will have to instruct them like that, because that's the law.
 
I doubt there's any kind of a drug connection (usually cat litter is just cat litter), but those who wish to explore the possibility may recall that in a text to the owner of the somewhat remote Haltwhistle cottage CM said she intended to tell her "friends" about it.

The owner of the cottage left some chocolates and prosecco for her guests, which CM thanks her for. This presumably explains what is apparently a prosecco bottle at the car scene on the M61. If so, it seems they didn't finish the bottle. I don't think they are druggies, alkies, or any other kind of substance abusers, or involved in the drugs economy, even if they did travel from one part of London to another part of that city for what remain unknown reasons and have a fair few burner phones on them.

 
(BBM)
The defence doesn't have to prove anything. Although nothing broken probably supports no crushing.

The evidence is circumstantial and extremely flimsy. On the harm charges, that is.
If the judge takes part in some plea bargain talk, offering a sentence of less than the time they've already spent inside, on the non-registration offence only, with everything else dropped, it could all be over by noon on Monday.

They might not like it, but they might decide a guilty plea to non-reg and going free is preferable to ~2-3 more years inside for perversion of the course of justice (plus non-reg, but probably concurrent and topped by PCJ).

Goodness knows what Martha Bourne would say to the cameras but she'd keep it short.

That said, the optics of not coming down hard on those who keep their baby's body and who consider DIY cremation or burial, might be considered suboptimal.

In another place, someone was suggesting it was inhuman to burn a baby's body. I don't know what they think happens to most dead babies' bodies in this country. In any case, CM couldn't do it.

"This highly exceptional case resulting from a set of extremely egregious extraordinary circumstances that we will probably never see again" might be how they play it. Then maybe something about social media.

Anyway, see you all on Monday. (Or sooner if more material appears before then.) Everyone have a good weekend!
You too! I’ve found your posts interesting and thought provoking, so thank you.
 
We aren't allowed cameras in court in the UK, they have a court artist who draws bad sketches that look nothing like the defendants and always make them look old and ugly.
As for describing what they are wearing, no idea, probably the same reason the papers have to tell us the value of someone's house :rolleyes:
Those sketches from the Rooney trial will haunt my dreams for a long time
 
I don't *think* we know for sure, but it is suggested that it is not long after they arrived on the South downs, the implication being they cannot and should not be found guilty of endangering the child by exposing her to hypothermic conditions.
I'm not so sure that the conditions on the South Downs, from the baby's point of view, were much different than she had already been exposed to.
In both cases, since birth, she seems to have been held zipped inside a parent's coat, or in a plastic bag or a thin buggy with small duvet thrown on top of her and nothing beneath. I may have missed it, but don't recall any witness describing her being fed, she does not seem to have been adequately dressed.
MG's reported statement about her condition says she was "well nourished" which is not saying "fed" nor did he expand on this with some information about fed on what, or when, by whom, and where was any nourishment obtained? Baby feeding is surely a big and regular item at this stage in life?
Google tells me that babies are born well nourished and that some newborns can, and do, survive a number of days before their first feed, that cold is their greatest threat and that they quickly lose energy and succumb in the face of hypothermia.
I don't think MG and CM's guilt in this case only starts with their time on the South Downs.
 
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