UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #5

[Twittens]

That's a fair point. However i think they would be able to tell from the placenta, wouldn't they?

There may originally have been two placentas, one that survived the fire and one that didn't.

Just speculation.

 

[OliverK]

In the cafe the moment where CM is holding the baby without supporting her head looks awful in the still but less so when you see the whole video. She may have been moving the baby as quickly as possible from seat to buggy to minimise the chance of her waking up. In any case, this is edited. What struck me was how CM puts the buggy cover on top of her, including over her head. It is MG who then arranges it in a more loving way, pulling it down a bit.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

In the cafe the moment where CM is holding the baby without supporting her head looks awful in the still but less so when you see the whole video. She may have been moving the baby as quickly as possible from seat to buggy to minimise the chance of her waking up. In any case, this is edited. What struck me was how CM puts the buggy cover on top of her, including over her head. It is MG who then arranges it in a more loving way, pulling it down a bit.

Yes, I said the same thing to a friend earlier about MG being the one who moved the cover over her gently, he seemed more tender with her.

 

[OliverK]

Tom Godfrey - 23es

His record of acquittals is superb and he has a good manner with clients

www.23es.com

Tom Godfrey called to the bar 2003, no mention of KC

It would appear to me that he is the fourth lawyer working on CM's case, the original having stepped down as it was stated in the press her Trust had declined to pay the fee and she changed to a Legal Aid barrister. However, it would appear unless there's discrepancies and inaccuracies in mainstream media reporting, that he is now the fourth barrister from a fourth chambers. I could be mistaken but if so, would welcome clarification, this seems most unusual IMO.

JMO MOO

If Legal Aid agreed to pay for a silk and then something happened such as the silk withdrew to "avoid professional embarrassment", it would be strange if suddenly the Legal Aid wouldn't pay for a silk any more, because the client's needs wouldn't have changed.

At this trial, has it always been Tom Godfrey doing the talking, or has he at some point been the junior sitting next to a KC?

Also what about CM's solicitor? Have they changed too?

Apologies for calling TG a silk. I got this wrong info from the Argus.

 

[SpaceOdyssey]

I hadn’t realised until reading the timeline from @rightsaidfred that CM had been involved in the TB Joshua cult. There is a really interesting 3 part documentary on BBC IPlayer called Disciples: The Cult of TB Joshua if anyone wants to know more about what life was like in the cult (sorry if this has already been shared, I’m new here)

 

[ShadowPuppet]

I don’t think CM was not trying to wake the baby. JMOO, it doesn’t look purposefully unkind and it’s not like she chucks her in, but it’s markedly odd because she doesn’t turn the buggy round and gently lean forward while lowering the baby to minimise distance (which you do awake or asleep, but if asleep it would give more control over lowering them). Equally, the baby appeared to be awake shortly before. Also OliverK - definitely right about the buggy cover over the face.

I still think the inappropriate clothing is so important in the footage. If someone has access to money and moves in circles with people who ski or do winter style holidays,
they’d know you layer up and even that you can buy all-in-one coats for babies for up to -50 degree weather in the right shop (and I don’t mean super unusual shops either, they’re in a large number of outdoor pursuit shops). Even without that, they’d know how easy it is to buy a good (but not arctic temp) coat in Boots or Argos. If someone’s had lots of support including mum and baby placements, the basics of why we cover a baby’s head and the fact they can lose a lot of heat would be explained. These things are highly unlikely to not be known, especially the more basic ones.

 

[OliverK]

That's a fair point. However i think they would be able to tell from the placenta, wouldn't they?

Fraternal twins have separate placentas, as do about a third of identical twins.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

If Legal Aid agreed to pay for a silk and then something happened such as the silk withdrew to "avoid professional embarrassment", it would be strange if suddenly the Legal Aid wouldn't pay for a silk any more, because the client's needs wouldn't have changed.

At this trial, has it always been Tom Godfrey doing the talking, or has he at some point been the junior sitting next to a KC?

Also what about CM's solicitor? Have they changed too?

Apologies for calling TG a silk. I got this wrong info from the Argus.

As far as I'm aware, today is the first time since court proceedings began that CM's barrister has ever been named in the press or spoken in court. As he is with 23ES and is not with any of the three silks or chambers named previously, most recently Philip Sapsford KC, followed by John Ryder KC, then I can only assume that she's on her fourth representative. Unless these are reporting errors.

15th January 2024 Daily Mail stated John Ryder KC

Aristocrat whose baby was found dead in a plastic bag appears in court

Constance Marten , 36, and Mark Gordon, 49, appeared at the Old Bailey on trial for manslaughter of their child, Victoria by gross negligence last January which they both deny.

www.dailymail.co.uk

25 August 2023 Daily Mail states Philip Sapsford KC is unsure why CM produced in court

Constance Marten lover Mark Gordon demands to appear in dock with her

Mark Gordon, 48, and Constance Marten, 35, sparked a huge UK police hunt after they went on the run with their new born baby in January this year.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Previously, Lewis Power KC and Colin Witcher confirm their appointment

Lewis Power KC and Colin Witcher instructed on behalf of Constance Marten - Church Court Chambers

Lewis Power KC and Colin Witcher instructed on behalf of Constance Marten Chambers can confirm, further to recent media reports ...

churchcourtchambers.co.uk

ETA: error re CM being in court corrected

 

[Waffle]

This will sound crazy but its crossed my mind more than once due to differing birth dates, witnesses seeing and not seeing babies etc...is there any possibility she had a multiple birth, twins maybe? Probably completely stupid but it has crossed my mind!

Interesting thought, I think it's extremely unlikely but not a stupid thought at all IMO. It really depends on the type of twins, if they shared a placenta or the placentas were fused it would be clear (most obviously two umbilical cords, but also plenty of other signs). If there was only the placenta they found with no sign of another placenta, cord or seperate membranes, the EBL seemed normal, placenta seemed typical on examination (although no telling what state it was in by this point, would you even see the vessels etc with decomposition?) Then I think they would have no reason to consider twins. MOO

 

[JennieM]

Disappearance of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Cartie]

Blaming everyone except her daughter? Anyhow IMO someone disruptive to a witness giving evidence should be ashamed of themselves and barred from further attending. It's incredibly intimidating.

Just made me think of something... the other 4 children, is CMs mother or any family taking care of them or are they not interested

 

[rightsaidfred]

Just made me think of something... the other 4 children, is CMs mother or any family taking care of them or are they not interested

We don't know where they are - and it's not really any of our business. We only know they were removed from CM & MG's care.

SS tend to regard placements within the extended family, known as kinship care, to be preferable. Typically this is grandparents, aunts and uncles of the child, but they can work further out. These children are normally placed on a Special Guardianship Order.

However, if there's no family that is both willing and suitable, they'll look outside the family for an adoption.

 

[JennieM]

In the podcast, Mr Gosling’s account states that after talking to them he then returned 20 minutes later and they were still there. He spoke to them again, once more offering to help them. During his first and second encounter with the couple, he says that the baby was consistently crying. There is no mention of Victoria being breastfed or being given milk. That’s a long time for a newborn to be crying and to not be offered milk. Maybe she was, but there is no mention of it in this account unless I missed it. Victoria must have been cold and hungry, maybe that’s why she was crying.


3:51pm

Mr Gosling said he saw a news feature about Marten and Gordon early in the morning.
When he went out a few hours later to walk his dog he saw a couple sat on a planter in George Elmer Way in Harwich.
He said he could see a baby wrapped in a towel or blanket in the woman's coat.
He said the baby was crying.
"It was a cry I didn't want to walk away from," he said.
"It was a cry I couldn't walk away from."
Asked if the baby sounded distressed Mr Gosling said "most definitely".
He asked them if they were the missing couple.
The man and woman denied it.
He asked if the baby was ok and offered them a lift to hospital.
He said the man said he was "doing the best for his child" and that he wanted to "keep his family together".
They said they were trying to get to London to see family.
Mr Gosling said the baby was "consistently" crying throughout the encounter, which last about ten minutes.
He said the baby looked "brand new" and that it was wearing a "white all in one suit" the hands were sticking out, the baby had no hat but the feet were enclosed in the clothing, he said.

Recap: Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial continues

Updates from The Old Bailey as the Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial continues.

www.theargus.co.uk

‎The Trial on Apple Podcasts​

 

[OceanElix]

This podcast is interesting as it repeats verbatim what witnesses have said which paints a very different picture from the news reports.

The witness in Harwich said CM seemed up for coming back for a cup of tea and getting help. Also that she seemed anxious.

I've just caught up with the podcast, it is really informative, lots more detail provided.

 

[OliverK]

I presume she was placing blame on the witness for not doing more which is quite astounding really!

Rather than "You should have stayed there, and then my granddaughter might very well be alive now", she may have meant "You've been feeling guilty, have you, Mr Van Driver, wondering whether you should have acted differently! Well what about meee and how I feel about how I could have acted differently?"

My guess would be CM doesn't want her mother at the trial. If she does it again and gets slung out, or given a stern warning, the jury may be in their room by the time the judge deals with the issue, but they'll have been in court when she actually made her intervention - which may affect their view of her daughter's family background. She's bound to be told this. Let's see whether she learns the lesson. (The lesson being "It's not about you" - with the corollary "The most important people at a Crown Court trial are the jury.")

"He [witness Ken Hudson] told jurors he had spent the last year being 'been cut up...because I believe that if I'd have stayed with that vehicle and the people that baby may be still alive.'"

Moment Constance Marten and her lover's car burns at roadside

Ken Hudson, a van driver who witnessed Marten and her partner Mark Gordon's Peugeot 206 go up in flames, told jurors at the Old Bailey he stopped to help on the M61 in Greater Manchester.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Megnut]

Suddenly in the court room, the baby was in full view on the CCTV wearing a white baby grow as Ms Marten adjusted her under her padded burgundy coat

Constance Marten: Images of newborn baby shown to jury for first time

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon are accused of manslaughter of baby Victoria, who was found in a shed.

www.bbc.co.uk

So heartbreaking....

To see her alive, wishing we could scoop her up and swaddle her. A warm bottle, loving arms...

A few random thoughts....

Could she be older than every estimate? I can't imagine moving about in the hours and days and first weeks after giving birth without a ready supply of pads. Could it be that, as early as Dec 19, she had already given birth?

I hate this but it seems obvious to me that the likeliest cause of death, if not by hypothermia, by starvation. Less and less milk supply, more and more lethargy, viscious spiral. May well have died by degrees, ultimately while her mother slept.

In the end, I can muster no sympathy for a "mother" who discards her baby like trash. And even less for one who, knowing her baby was in growing distress as poor Victoria surely was, didn't sacrifice whatever freedom she was chasing and bring her baby somewhere, anywhere for help. If only left in the back of a left -- precious child could be alive.

JMO

 

[Cardgame]

In the podcast, Mr Gosling’s account states that after talking to them he then returned 20 minutes later and they were still there. He spoke to them again, once more offering to help them. During his first and second encounter with the couple, he says that the baby was consistently crying. There is no mention of Victoria being breastfed or being given milk. That’s a long time for a newborn to be crying and to not be offered milk. Maybe she was, but there is no mention of it in this account unless I missed it. Victoria must have been cold and hungry, maybe that’s why she was crying.


3:51pm

Mr Gosling said he saw a news feature about Marten and Gordon early in the morning.
When he went out a few hours later to walk his dog he saw a couple sat on a planter in George Elmer Way in Harwich.
He said he could see a baby wrapped in a towel or blanket in the woman's coat.
He said the baby was crying.
"It was a cry I didn't want to walk away from," he said.
"It was a cry I couldn't walk away from."
Asked if the baby sounded distressed Mr Gosling said "most definitely".
He asked them if they were the missing couple.
The man and woman denied it.
He asked if the baby was ok and offered them a lift to hospital.
He said the man said he was "doing the best for his child" and that he wanted to "keep his family together".
They said they were trying to get to London to see family.
Mr Gosling said the baby was "consistently" crying throughout the encounter, which last about ten minutes.
He said the baby looked "brand new" and that it was wearing a "white all in one suit" the hands were sticking out, the baby had no hat but the feet were enclosed in the clothing, he said.

Recap: Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial continues

Updates from The Old Bailey as the Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial continues.

www.theargus.co.uk

‎The Trial on Apple Podcasts​

The police had time to get there and save the baby right then and there.

Poor Victoria. It's unbearable. So many missed chances.

 

[ShadowPuppet]

@Cardgame, definitely I think that is (imo) a key similarity to lots of child protection cases.

Thinking about the CCTV footage and other things we know, there are a few red flags over the breastfeeding (is it correct CM breastfed?). It’s odd that she doesn’t feed Victoria in the cafe, unless it was cut from footage. It’s a relatively extended period and they’re in the warm, where she’s sat down and it would be easier. I know she fed her in one of the taxis, but when you’re establishing breastfeeding usually they’re barely off you. Also, they’d presumably have been told that a dummy wasn’t a good plan early on because you can miss cues and limit weight gain and I wonder if that’s partly why it’s being mentioned in the items bought? I’d imagine she’d need to feed more often due to the cold exposure. Equally, JMOO but if Victoria was being lifted awkwardly at other times, she could easily have been dropped or slipped awkwardly - especially with the level of exhaustion CM must have felt. Fast ‘easy’ labours don’t mean a woman in unaffected, absolutely they can have more energy and go for a walk the same or next day, but it often relies on resting after and low levels of stress. CM was presumably travelling long distances on very little sleep at all and feeling very stressed and under pressure. She must have been utterly knackered.

 

[Leannaf2721]

So heartbreaking....

To see her alive, wishing we could scoop her up and swaddle her. A warm bottle, loving arms...

A few random thoughts....

Could she be older than every estimate? I can't imagine moving about in the hours and days and first weeks after giving birth without a ready supply of pads. Could it be that, as early as Dec 19, she had already given birth?

I hate this but it seems obvious to me that the likeliest cause of death, if not by hypothermia, by starvation. Less and less milk supply, more and more lethargy, viscious spiral. May well have died by degrees, ultimately while her mother slept.

In the end, I can muster no sympathy for a "mother" who discards her baby like trash. And even less for one who, knowing her baby was in growing distress as poor Victoria surely was, didn't sacrifice whatever freedom she was chasing and bring her baby somewhere, anywhere for help. If only left in the back of a left -- precious child could be alive.

JMO

I think she does look older she doesn’t seem to have that newborn scrunch as they have in the first two weeks of life, she is very stretched out..

Also in the timeline posted a few comments before it is missing his visit to a Leeds police station I think that was the 26th?

 

[JumpingFrog]

The Argus has produced a map of all locations involved:




Trial enters its 5th day and commences at 11am UK time :

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Live updates as Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial enters fifth day.

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