UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #5

[JennieM]

2:30pm

Couple whisper to each other throughout court case over baby's death​

A couple on trial over the death of their baby after weeks on the run "carrying her in a Lidl bag" were whispering to each other throughout their court case.

It was the first time Constance Marten and Mark Gordon sat in the dock together at the Old Bailey in London as the trial entered its fifth day. Marten was not in attendance for the other days of the trial.

Read the evidence heard over the morning here.

Recap as Constance Marten seen in court for first time in trial over daughter's death

Live updates as Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial enters fifth day.

www.theargus.co.uk

 

[Earthwindfire]

Did we ever find out why they went to Allison Road, Harringey? It's a purely residential road, so I assume they went to see someone to ask for help but were refused. I wonder if we'll ever find out who that was.

It's a shame they weren't a bit quicker thinking, inviting them in, popping out to the shops "for some milk" and calling the police...

Did we ever find out why they went to Allison Road, Harringey? It's a purely residential road, so I assume they went to see someone to ask for help but were refused. I wonder if we'll ever find out who that was.

It's a shame they weren't a bit quicker thinking, inviting them in, popping out to the shops "for some milk" and calling the police...

Do you know when they went to Allison Road? Sorry, I'm struggling to keep up with the timeline.

Lovely, rather expensive houses on Allison Road by the looks of it. I nearly rented a flat down the road from there about 15 years ago and it wasn't quite as nice then!

Editing now I've looked into this more.

It looks like they just got a taxi from there. I would assume they just happened to be at Allison Road, possibly at the Green Lane end where it's quite busy and that's where they picked a cab up. Rather than them going to see anyone in particular.

 

[rockthecasbah]

Did we ever find out why they went to Allison Road, Harringey? It's a purely residential road, so I assume they went to see someone to ask for help but were refused. I wonder if we'll ever find out who that was.

It's a shame they weren't a bit quicker thinking, inviting them in, popping out to the shops "for some milk" and calling the police...

The Standard's account of the taxi driver saying he refused to continue the journey would put them in that area as it says near Hornsey. So may be just where the taxi driver made them get out

Ed: Now I've seen it was 1.24am, if they were going to see somebody, maybe they were asleep and not answering the door at that time

 

[Rolypolyoly]

What are they, in the back row of a history lesson?!

Whatever lesson they may act like they are in the back row of, it's still not one I think they will learn from!

 

[dalsglen]

1.24am Sunday January 8th

 

[Alyce]

Cab driver Abdirisakh Mohamud said he became "suspicious" after picking the couple in the early hours of January 8 last year in Whitechapel.

He became aware that they had a baby with them that was “not much longer than the width of her leg”.

Gordon asked if Mr Mohamud was “trustworthy” and then asked if there was a camera in the car.

I said yes even though there was not a camera because I wanted to feel safe.

“He did not look happy and asked if I was sharing the conversation.”

Mr Mohamud said he asked why they were wearing Covid masks.
Marten said she was a Muslim and it was a hijab,

“At this point I decided I was not willing to continue the journey. I had an uneasy feeling.”

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon whisper throughout baby death trial

A couple on trial over the death of their baby after weeks on the run "carrying her in a Lidl bag" were whispering to each other…

www.theargus.co.uk

 

[OliverK]

The Standard's account of the taxi driver saying he refused to continue the journey would put them in that area as it says near Hornsey. So may be just where the taxi driver made them get out

Ed: Now I've seen it was 1.24am, if they were going to see somebody, maybe they were asleep and not answering the door at that time

What destination did they give the driver of the first taxi, the one who put them out? Can't have been Newhaven, because Hornsey is nowhere near any sensible route there from the East End.

Might be relevant that although they didn't have £30 in cash for the first taxi - they only had £20 - they paid £475 for the second one.

 

[OliverK]

Is "bag for life" normal parlance for one of those sturdy woven-PVC supermarket bags that opens out with a flat bottom?

We should probably assume that jurors are obeying the law and not searching for material about the case either on the internet or elsewhere, and not paying attention to any reports or stories they do notice, but witnesses are not under such an obligation.

Official advice to jurors:

"if you see or hear any stories about your case in the NEWS you should NOT PAY ANY ATTENTION to them."

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5fbe9ee0e90e077ed7351b0a/j001-eng.pdf

 

[rockthecasbah]

What destination did they give the driver of the first taxi, the one who put them out? Can't have been Newhaven, because Hornsey is nowhere near any sensible route there from the East End.

Might be relevant that although they didn't have £30 in cash for the first taxi - they only had £20 - they paid £475 for the second one.

IMO they just said they didn't have £30 because the driver was suspicious of them, they didn't want to pay him properly

 

[Cherwell]

Is "bag for life" normal parlance for one of those sturdy woven-PVC supermarket bags that opens out with a flat bottom?

No, I think the term is being wrongly applied. A "bag for life" usually refers to a flimsy polythene carrier bag of the type that used to be free, but now carries a small charge. When the bag is worn out you can take it back to the supermarket and claim a free replacement. You can exchange old for new indefinitely, hence "for life".

 

[OliverK]

IMO they just said they didn't have £30 because the driver was suspicious of them, they didn't want to pay him properly

I was assuming this was a minicab with payment agreed at the start.
Do we know what means of payment they used for the £475?

 

[rightsaidfred]

The Standard's account of the taxi driver saying he refused to continue the journey would put them in that area as it says near Hornsey. So may be just where the taxi driver made them get out

Ed: Now I've seen it was 1.24am, if they were going to see somebody, maybe they were asleep and not answering the door at that time

It does go some way to explain why they were there - Allison Road and Green Lanes directly adjoin each other.

What I'd be interested to know is the destination they initially requested - if you were going from Whitechapel (inner east London) then you wouldn't go via Green Lanes (north London) to get to Newhaven (south coast)

Is "bag for life" normal parlance for one of those sturdy woven-PVC supermarket bags that opens out with a flat bottom?

We should probably assume that jurors are obeying the law and not searching for material about the case either on the internet or elsewhere, and not paying attention to any reports or stories they do notice, but witnesses are not under such an obligation.

Official advice to jurors:

"if you see or hear any stories about your case in the NEWS you should NOT PAY ANY ATTENTION to them."

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5fbe9ee0e90e077ed7351b0a/j001-eng.pdf

It started with the scheme that supermarket had / have where you could pay 10p for a bag and they'd replace it free when it wore out. At the time, you could pick up a free but flimsy carrier bag. I think the terminology has become generalised to mean any reusable shopping bag, even if Lidl won't replace it when it wears out.

 

[OliverK]

No, I think the term is being wrongly applied. A "bag for life" usually refers to a flimsy polythene carrier bag of the type that used to be free, but now carries a small charge. When the bag is worn out you can take it back to the supermarket and claim a free replacement. You can exchange old for new indefinitely, hence "for life".

Ah yes - that makes more sense: one of those bags with reinforced handles that's midway between the very flimsy kind and the sturdy woven-PVC kind that CM and MG had. "Carrier bag" might be a more common term for the latter?

 

[OceanElix]

Ah yes - that makes more sense: one of those bags with reinforced handles that's midway between the very flimsy kind and the sturdy woven-PVC kind that CM and MG had. "Carrier bag" might be a more common term for the latter?

The jury have been shown cctv footage that has been posted up the thread so they will have seen exactly the type of bag used so even if variations of the term for it differ, they will have a good impression of the sturdiness from the footage they've been shown.

Moo

 

[OliverK]

On Flower and Dean Walk in Whitechapel, they appear with the buggy (CM) and three bags that all have stuff in them (MG), turn round and go back, and then reappear with three bags (one CM, two MG) and no buggy.

If they put Victoria into the smaller bag, did they fit the stuff that was in that bag into the other two bags, dump it, leave it in the third bag, or some combination?

The white bags look a bit fuller than they were, so they probably transferred some stuff into those, but I'm interested in what was in the smaller bag, if anything, with Victoria.

See from about 1:40 here:

https://cdn.jwplayer.com/videos/vGYFYsHN-BqwSYW3q.mp4

 

[rockthecasbah]

On Flower and Dean Walk in Whitechapel, they appear with the buggy (CM) and three bags that all have stuff in them (MG), turn round and go back, and then reappear with three bags (one CM, two MG) and no buggy.

If they put Victoria into the smaller bag, did they fit the stuff that was in that bag into the other two bags, dump it, leave it in the third bag, or some combination?

The white bags look a bit fuller than they were, so they probably transferred some stuff into those, but I'm interested in what was in the smaller bag, if anything, with Victoria.

See from about 1:40 here:

https://cdn.jwplayer.com/videos/vGYFYsHN-BqwSYW3q.mp4

I remember the news report at the time said they dumped buggy and possessions in Whitechapel but didn't say what possessions.

 

[OliverK]

The jury have been shown cctv footage that has been posted up the thread so they will have seen exactly the type of bag used so even if variations of the term for it differ, they will have a good impression of the sturdiness from the footage they've been shown.

Moo

Sure. Where I was coming from though was the witness statement made by Nicholas Frost regarding what he saw on 16 January:

"He was carrying two bags, one of them was an orange bag for life."

Admittedly this wasn't given in oral testimony in court and was presumably said many months ago. But still, the phrase "bag for life" is being used so often...and not in its usual meaning it seems.

Cited at 3.06pm in the Argus:

Recap as Constance Marten seen in court for first time in trial over daughter's death

Live updates as Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial enters fifth day.

www.theargus.co.uk

Any kind of plastic bag is a terrible place to carry a baby, so I hope the jury hear CM and MG explain how they made damned sure Victoria was OK. The case may even come to turn on this.

 

[JumpingFrog]

In normal chatter (I'm from up north) I would refer to this as a bag for life or a reusable bag...

Lidl Reusable Large Shopping Bag with 4 handles Shoulder/Tote Bag Brand New | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Lidl Reusable Large Shopping Bag with 4 handles Shoulder/Tote Bag Brand New at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products.

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[ShadowPuppet]

Sure. Where I was coming from though was the witness statement made by Nicholas Frost regarding what he saw on 16 January:

"He was carrying two bags, one of them was an orange bag for life."

Admittedly this wasn't given in oral testimony in court and was presumably said many months ago. But still, the phrase "bag for life" is being used so often...and not in its usual meaning it seems.

Cited at 3.06pm in the Argus:

Recap as Constance Marten seen in court for first time in trial over daughter's death

Live updates as Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial enters fifth day.

www.theargus.co.uk

Any kind of plastic bag is a terrible place to carry a baby, so I hope the jury hear CM and MG explain how they made damned sure Victoria was OK. The case may even come to turn on this.

In my area, we’d always colloquially say ‘bag for life’ for a stronger, reusable supermarket bag with woven handles. We’d call a flimsy bag, a ‘carrier bag’ or a ‘plastic bag’. Even though I think the original campaign was the the replacement bags.

I agree re terrible place for a baby. I also wonder if they might refer back to previous advice given about newborns sleeping on flat, firm surfaces (which a bag is not) and the risks of not abiding by this. They keep mentioning the co-sleeping advice given previously, so perhaps this might be linked together to the bag also breaking safer sleeping advice.

 

[charminglane]

In normal chatter (I'm from up north) I would refer to this as a bag for life or a reusable bag...

View attachment 479554

Lidl Reusable Large Shopping Bag with 4 handles Shoulder/Tote Bag Brand New | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Lidl Reusable Large Shopping Bag with 4 handles Shoulder/Tote Bag Brand New at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products.

www.ebay.co.uk

I agree with you.
I'm in CA, and had to look up Lidl and bag for life.
Reusable shopping bag.
Thank you for the visual.