UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #6

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apologies if this has already been posted, I've not seen it in today's reports.



Marten claims two of her other children were abued in care, court heard.

Under cross examination, she claimed that her two oldest children suffered abuse after being taken into care.



 
"I had to escape my family because my family are extremely oppressive and bigoted and wouldn't allow me to have children with my husband," she said under cross-examination by prosecutor Joel Smith.

"They would do anything to erase that child from the family line, which is what they did end up doing."

She said her family would "try to get my children taken off me" and "refused to take them in when they were put up for adoption".
 

apologies if this has already been posted, I've not seen it in today's reports.



Marten claims two of her other children were abued in care, court heard.

Under cross examination, she claimed that her two oldest children suffered abuse after being taken into care.




From the above article
"Mr Smith if you don't mind wen are looking at this from a western perspective and there are kids all around the world that live in tents"

"You just have to look at France... Calais...lots of refugees are living in tents with newborns and they don't die because their mother's are taking good care of them"

I think that just about sums up the prosecution's case in her own words!
 

apologies if this has already been posted, I've not seen it in today's reports.



Marten claims two of her other children were abued in care, court heard.

Under cross examination, she claimed that her two oldest children suffered abuse after being taken into care.



If she really believes this is true, it just makes it even more unbelievable that she missed so many visits with them. JMO.
 
If she really believes this is true, it just makes it even more unbelievable that she missed so many visits with them. JMO.
Or is it possible that she felt so powerless to fix things that seeing them felt pointlessly painful and she just gave up? (I realise ofc that the visits weren't pointless from the children's perspective.)

The overwhelming sense I'm getting both from CM's testimony and from her actions generally, over a long period of time, is one of perceived powerlessness. If this was her subjective sense of herself, it doesn't really help that she was objectively well placed to take control of the situation, improve her circumstances and make positive change in her life and the lives of her children. If she couldn't do it, well, then she just couldn't. I think we ought to be able to feel that social services made the right decision without demonising her for her problems.

jmoo
 
Or is it possible that she felt so powerless to fix things that seeing them felt pointlessly painful and she just gave up? (I realise ofc that the visits weren't pointless from the children's perspective.)

The overwhelming sense I'm getting both from CM's testimony and from her actions generally, over a long period of time, is one of perceived powerlessness. If this was her subjective sense of herself, it doesn't really help that she was objectively well placed to take control of the situation, improve her circumstances and make positive change in her life and the lives of her children. If she couldn't do it, well, then she just couldn't. I think we ought to be able to feel that social services made the right decision without demonising her for her problems.

jmoo
I respect your opinion, but I’m also entitled to mine.
 
I fear with her acting abilities she's going to get off with a fairly light punishment...anyone else think this?

IMO she's not getting away with anything even if she walks. She's got four children taken, never to be returned, and one dead. Whether or not she can ever see her part in that, the outcome is horrific enough already IMO.
 
In courts i got the sense that if they could have stayed in a cottage or hotel or air b n b it wld have been preferable but they couldn’t get additional nights due to :needing ID to book w booking.com which she mentioned as using. She said she left her handbag in the car after the fire which had her wallet in and she also mentioned a fairly large quantity of money being in the car at the time of the fire and being left there. So she had no handbag, the baby items she had stockpiled now up in flames from the car fire .. nowwhere safe to go .. just given birth.. desperate to hold on to their baby … being the subject of a massive person hunt propelled into the public eye..can’t even imagine the mental toll this would take. Other observations from the gallery: nervous demeanour .. self conscious apologising a lot for being nervous and not remembering everything .. poised.. composed … far from arrogant I think she came across humble but clearly affected by her life experiences w her family and choices she felt she had no other choice to make .. her make up was natural - she looked pretty she has a very sort of natural beauty about her . She clutched a bunch of what looked like personal papers close to her which the judge asked her to
Put to the side . This included a note from MG he passed her before she started evidence. JMO and am not conding their action or what happened but she had an almost ethereal quality. She didn’t come across in court like an arrogant monster. Quite the opposite. Just my opinion.
This is just the sort of observation that I had been waiting to read. Thanks so much for taking the time to write with such detail.

Might I also add a couple of point with reference to other posters here. Having previously worked in Social Services I would say that supervised contact between parents and children is by no means easy. Perhaps it doesn’t represent their 24/7 parenting capacity but these parents are extremely exposed & are scrutinised, usually by a perfect stranger in a austere room.

Perhaps my comments could come across as too sympathetic to negligent parents. I have seen both sides of the system and think my perceptions are fair. I have worked with hundreds of families, many whose children were removed due to neglect (which was far more common than for abuse) and 2 families whose child had died in their care. I can genuinely say that I recall only 2 parents who I would deem wilfully cruel - both of whom happened to be men. Just my perceptions as I say.
 

apologies if this has already been posted, I've not seen it in today's reports.



Marten claims two of her other children were abued in care, court heard.

Under cross examination, she claimed that her two oldest children suffered abuse after being taken into care.



It’s certainly not impossible by any stretch, but is unlikely. A lot of birth parents make claims like this that are purely malicious (in the sense of being unfounded) in an attempt to find some control in the situation and cause the children to be moved again while the situation is investigated. I do think, however, if it wasn’t true, it’s a terribly sad accusation to make for those children who will have to be told about it when appropriate.

JMOO, but CM appears to have so many conflicting views. She’s being watched by investigators hired by her family (with a hint of suggestion they could have caused car issues), but wants CCTV in contact centres. She doesn’t want medical intervention, but presents at a hospital for the birth. She would do anything for her children, but not take a COVID test or agree to another mother and baby placement. I think we’re now seeing a bit more of the difficulties that prevented her working with SS effectively: with the covid test refusal, the CCTV request because she felt she was being misrepresented (despite the fact this prevented her seeing her children) and - maybe - these abuse claims.

I think her comments about children in Mongolia, children living in igloos and refugees raising infants in Calais are very poorly thought through. Firstly, children in refugee camps do die due to conditions, some children died after leaving the camp due to the conditions of the camp and lack of medical care there. Children in igloos have suitable very warm, waterproof clothing throughout the day inside the igloo and their cultures had knowledge on how to survive extreme cold. They also ate a very high fat diet. In 2023, Save the Children campaigned for humanitarian aid for children in Mongolia due to the extreme cold killing livestock and leaving 80,000 children in need of aid. Equally, again, the families in that culture had experience of managing extreme weather conditions. I’m not sure she realises how offensive her comments about other cultures and religions have been - the hijab in the taxi, the Irish traveller accent on the labour ward, now the bizarre references to igloos and Mongolia.

IMO, she comes across as someone who just won’t change her mind and tries to use whatever shred of knowledge to support her opinions, even if it’s contextually and morally (and just factually) wrong.
 
"I had to escape my family because my family are extremely oppressive and bigoted and wouldn't allow me to have children with my husband," she said under cross-examination by prosecutor Joel Smith.

"They would do anything to erase that child from the family line, which is what they did end up doing."

She said her family would "try to get my children taken off me" and "refused to take them in when they were put up for adoption".
I'd love to hear her family's perspective on this, though I know I never will. It seems possible that their actions were all to save her from herself...but why would they not adopt those beautiful innocents? That said, I am kind of glad they didn't, as CM is clearly a product of dysfunction.
 

That's a strong implication that the family are racist (and by implication MG is really just the male equivalent of Meghan Markle). I cannot think of any other explanation given the reference to not wanting the children in the family line.

I wonder if the prosecution barrister is aware that her elder brother married a black woman, had the wedding featured in Vogue magazine, and was still bought a house...

Which is going to make her thinly veiled accusations of racism look rather implausible.
The 'thinly veiled' accusations of racism might be more palatable (and beneficial) than saying her family did not want to be associated with an ex-con, particularly one charged with violence and rape at the age 14. imo, speculation.
 
The accusation of family racism is interesting considering CM's brother recently (and quite publicly) married a black woman? CM's mother and many other relatives were photographed looking pretty happy at the wedding. Perhaps the family's issue with MG may indeed have been more to do with his background. Jmo.

 
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Thanks for this! I've only been reading textual stuff.
Someone sounds stingy - all that money and they didn't hire Kroll!

Blackstone:


Am not familiar with London Consulting Limited in the investigation world.
RBBM
I have a strong feeling that this is the crutch of her families issues with her. From what we have been told, she has three brothers, she is the only daughter but she is the eldest.
The brother's scoffing in the early days of the court case (IIRC, over the kebab shop), got my back up.
I have one sibling, younger and male. Yet, I have been scoffed at over the years, and an attempt was made to invalidate my mother's will so my brother would inherit all from her, I was threatened to not go to her funeral or I would be ostracised and 'worse' and I have had my reputation torn to shreds by the gaslighting lies that have been told.
I have been treated as the scapegoat for all the families dysfunctions since I was young. There is a good reason I moved across the pond.
Point being, money will always cause problems with families and the ones who control it are extremely stingy.
 
“We are looking at this from a Western perspective.

“There are people around the world who live in tents, there are children who live in igloos as long as you give them warmth and love and food… I would have preferred not to be in a tent.”


Um. Maybe a Western Perspective is appropriate here, on account of YOU being a white Western woman who grew up in a massive stately home, not an igloo.

JMO.
RBBMFF
Why should the fact that CM is a white western woman have anything to do with the court taking a Western perspective?
What I mean is, it is true what she said, that there are people all over the world who live in tents, all year round, and in extreme environments, much worse than Sussex in January.
They have lived this way for centuries.
Imagine if for some reason or another, these people who live in extreme environments and live in tents suddenly have to obide by western perspective? They would likely all have their children taken away from them, kinda like what they did with indigenous children, taking them away from their parents, forcing them to practice a religion they did not understand, changing their names to European ones... you see where I am going.
That is cultural bias and is unfair and cruel in so many ways.

I think this is the point CM was trying to make.
JMO and food for thought.

ETA: and I am sure that the people who live in tents in extreme environments would prefer to not have to live in a tent.
 
But that was before both the prosecution and defence said Victoria died.
'Infected piercing" is a very precise example.
Could Mg have damaged his toe in the fire?
On The Trial podcast, it said he lost the tip of his toe, and it got infected, IIRC?
What if that was the rotting flesh/infected piercing smell?
JMO
 
CM is being so disingenuous. Also her 'Just look at France in Calais, there are refugees who are living in tents and their children do not die.' She's comparing apples with pears. CM neither has the generations of customs and skills of indigenous populations and their way of life, nor was she being made to flee a war zone or similar. She may have felt she was fleeing some kind of persecution, but the reality was people and organisations only wanted the best outcome for her and her children. I'm sure a few of those refugees would have happily swapped places with her!
But what she said is true.
Children ARE living in tents worldwide, and they are fine and survive.
That is objective.
There is an obvious difference herein in this case: WHERE they were born, raised, and educated, as well as their 'culture.'
Societies abide to their own cultures, it is cultural evolution in it's prime.
But who is to say their culture is superior to another?
JMO
 
Yes, I think if I was warned that leaving my baby would be classed as abandonment I would probably have accepted the video link. Weren’t most trials done by video link during Covid anyway? I cannot imagine leaving my new born baby alone in hospital. (Obviously I am not talking about NICU babies here, that’s totally different).

But even so, she could have gone straight back after the court case, taken a covid test and been with her baby. She didn’t need to leave overnight and there is no reason whatsoever not to take a covid test. JMO.
RBBMFF
But they apparently told her that if she left it would be classed as abandonment, so she still would have been classed as abandoning the baby, even if she did take the test.
Why are there no SS representatives testifying?
 
RBBMFF
But they apparently told her that if she left it would be classed as abandonment, so she still would have been classed as abandoning the baby, even if she did take the test.
Why are there no SS representatives testifying?
Please clarify .. What is "SS" an acronym for? Social Services, or ...

Thank you.
 
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