UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #6

[rightsaidfred]

I doubt it - in order to receive the letters they'd have to tell the authorities their address which they probably don't want to do

The letters are sent via SS, so there's nothing to stop them posting without including a return address. Likewise SS might have emailed photocopies to them instead of hard copies.

A bit of reading suggests that SS always keep a copy on file in case the hard copy is lost at a later date, so even if CM and MG went off the radar for a while they could see copies later.

Birth families often live chaotic lifestyles, sadly this isn't a problem unique to MG and CM.

 

[InstantCoffee]

I wonder if CM has refused a psychological assessment. Given her distrust of any authorities / medical professionals I would assume that even if she is profoundly mentally unwell (extreme paranoia is obvious to even the layperson) she would not agree to assessment. Not only would she distrust the assessor but would probably feel this would give her even less chance of getting any children back / contact.

In reality I think the reverse would be true. If she had agreed to assessment then there's a possibility she might not even have been deemed to be fit to stand trial.

This is all conjecture of course - she may have been assessed (although nothing has been submitted) or she may be completely aware of what she is doing! It's interesting though as many defendants will use their mental health to try and mitigate their actions - and it is one thing that hasn't happened here... yet!

 

[Smccat]

I was just thinking about this.. she seems to be putting most of their actions down to the need to hide from her family, who were allegedly tapping her phones and email… I wonder why no one from her family has been asked to give evidence as to whether this is true? If it isn’t, she appears to have huge paranoia IMO

This is the part I don’t really get.

If no one in the family is going to give any evidence over this alleged PI surveillance and other interferences (or have been asked and won’t) then if it can’t be refuted -or otherwise- then are we just expected to believe her take as she perceives it on the basis of she wouldn’t perjure herself. Or are we to assume because she’s been allowed to bring it up at all it is in the record as fact and to be accepted end of.

If no witness/es from the family or even at least a perhaps a friend is brought in and she’s not had a psych evaluation either it leaves the question of ‘is she actually mentally okay‘ out there for speculation when trying to review the actions.

I too can’t see her having agreed to a mental health evaluation. At a guess she likely refused one anyway as she would naturally view it a trap to start with and as she is giving more power over to authorities just for the fact she agreed. If she did, say, reluctantly agree and has markers or didn’t pass it with flying colours she would most likely claim it was rigged anyhow.

Do we actually know that no one is giving evidence at this stage and that an evaluation won’t be presented?

Her mother and brother can’t testify as they’ve been in court.

IMO JMOO

 

[Sillybilly]

Ss has been used by many in this post to mean social services, so yes, I was following suit

I merely asked the question for clarification because we received a Report and it's impossible to search an entire thread for "SS". We have other discussions that refer to individuals by their initials SS. With a very small staff, over 220,000 members, and thousands of cases, Mods and Admin aren't sitting in every single discussion to know precisely what AB, DD, SS, TW, etc mean in every single case.

If you have further comment, take it to private messaging. Thank You.

 

[crespo29]

I guess there's a difference between a short abandonment, which CM and MG may believe is justified to attend court, and a continued abandonment for refusing a covid test.

SS evidence was agreed facts.

I wonder what would have happened if she took the covid test and it showed she was positive? Does anyone know the protocol for that situation?

 

[imstilla.grandma]

12:00pm‘I do feel guilty for falling asleep on her’, says Marten

11:48amDesperate couple searched bins for food

11:39amMarten ‘too scared’ to hand herself in to police

9:42amConstance Marten ‘considered suicide’ after death of baby daughter

I had to escape oppressive and bigoted family, Constance Marten tells court

Constance Marten has insisted she had to escape because of her “oppressive and bigoted family”, a court heard.

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Earthwindfire]

I wonder what would have happened if she took the covid test and it showed she was positive? Does anyone know the protocol for that situation?

At the time I believe standard protocol would have been to allow access but you would be in a private room (presumably in the circumstances with the baby). This begs the question, why was it not presumed she had covid which I believe would be standard if someone refused a test and required medical care. I.E. they would be put in a side room that had no one else in

 

[missmargot]

I have just caught up with the last few days in court, the balanced and informative posts on here, the press coverage and the podcasts.

CM’s family dynamic is really interesting. Quite where the line between CM’s paranoia and her family’s controlling or sinister behaviour lies I don’t know, but I imagine there is truth in both. CM seems to be a very damaged individual- her father’s well publicised departure when she was a child, her time in a Nigerian cult (not mentioned in court, unless I have missed it) and now her accusation of childhood trauma. If we take her word that she had cut off one family member before meeting MG then it’s evident that there was discord in the family stemming from something other than their relationship. I agree with previous posters that the trust fund could be a cause of further conflict. Money can cause huge rifts within families, even those who were already wealthy. But again, the trust fund came after the initial estrangement.

I am curious about her belief that legal action by her family stopped her travelling abroad. We know that her father put a wardship application to the courts, but I am not clear on whether this was granted (we know he didn’t go on to adopt the children) and if it could have stopped her travelling abroad after the children had been removed. It’s odd, very odd.

Has her father been in court at all?

 

[porkypies]

Wow, I'm sure a lot of us would like to send a "stern email" to our employers and increase our income tenfold. Poor Little Rich Girl indeed.

I wonder if this is the reason for having more children, and why they were so loved?
The first one increased her income from £50 to £500 per week.

 

[Smccat]

I have just caught up with the last few days in court, the balanced and informative posts on here, the press coverage and the podcasts.

CM’s family dynamic is really interesting. Quite where the line between CM’s paranoia and her family’s controlling or sinister behaviour lies I don’t know, but I imagine there is truth in both. CM seems to be a very damaged individual- her father’s well publicised departure when she was a child, her time in a Nigerian cult (not mentioned in court, unless I have missed it) and now her accusation of childhood trauma. If we take her word that she had cut off one family member before meeting MG then it’s evident that there was discord in the family stemming from something other than their relationship. I agree with previous posters that the trust fund could be a cause of further conflict. Money can cause huge rifts within families, even those who were already wealthy. But again, the trust fund came after the initial estrangement.

I am curious about her belief that legal action by her family stopped her travelling abroad. We know that her father put a wardship application to the courts, but I am not clear on whether this was granted (we know he didn’t go on to adopt the children) and if it could have stopped her travelling abroad after the children had been removed. It’s odd, very odd.

Has her father been in court at all?

Don’t believe so. If he came I’d literally fall off my sofa

 

[Smccat]

I wonder if this is the reason for having more children, and why they were so loved?
The first one increased her income from £50 to £500 per week.

I don’t believe, personally, it was about financial gain.

 

[Nikynoo]

I have just caught up with the last few days in court, the balanced and informative posts on here, the press coverage and the podcasts.

CM’s family dynamic is really interesting. Quite where the line between CM’s paranoia and her family’s controlling or sinister behaviour lies I don’t know, but I imagine there is truth in both. CM seems to be a very damaged individual- her father’s well publicised departure when she was a child, her time in a Nigerian cult (not mentioned in court, unless I have missed it) and now her accusation of childhood trauma. If we take her word that she had cut off one family member before meeting MG then it’s evident that there was discord in the family stemming from something other than their relationship. I agree with previous posters that the trust fund could be a cause of further conflict. Money can cause huge rifts within families, even those who were already wealthy. But again, the trust fund came after the initial estrangement.

I am curious about her belief that legal action by her family stopped her travelling abroad. We know that her father put a wardship application to the courts, but I am not clear on whether this was granted (we know he didn’t go on to adopt the children) and if it could have stopped her travelling abroad after the children had been removed. It’s odd, very odd.

Has her father been in court at all?

IMO it was her grandmothers death and the subsequent sale of the estate that caused that rift. IMO, CM is right in that the sale of the estate would have been against her grandmothers wishes, but it could be that the family were left with a large tax bill upon her death and perhaps the only way to satisfy that debt was to sell the estate.

Whether the childhood trauma is family related or not, I don’t know.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

I don’t believe, personally, it was about financial gain.

Me either.

 

[rockthecasbah]

The letters are sent via SS, so there's nothing to stop them posting without including a return address. Likewise SS might have emailed photocopies to them instead of hard copies.

A bit of reading suggests that SS always keep a copy on file in case the hard copy is lost at a later date, so even if CM and MG went off the radar for a while they could see copies later.

Birth families often live chaotic lifestyles, sadly this isn't a problem unique to MG and CM.

Personally I think CM and MG are unlikely to get organised to actually do it, or to be willing to engage with SS at all even for this purpose.

 

[Alyce]

IMO it was her grandmothers death and the subsequent sale of the estate that caused that rift. IMO, CM is right in that the sale of the estate would have been against her grandmothers wishes, but it could be that the family were left with a large tax bill upon her death and perhaps the only way to satisfy that debt was to sell the estate.

Whether the childhood trauma is family related or not, I don’t know.

I had spoken out about a childhood trauma against one of my family members

Constance Marten says she got £2k a month from family despite being 'cut off'

Constance Marten has taken to the stand today in her manslaughter trial at the Old Bailey where she and partner Mark Gordon are accused of killing their fifth child, newborn daughter Victoria

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[ShadowPuppet]

I wonder what would have happened if she took the covid test and it showed she was positive? Does anyone know the protocol for that situation?

They had protocol in place for Covid positive mothers on the labour and postnatal wards. I can’t say for sure that theirs were the same as ours, but in our area (according to other mums who gave birth in hospital at the time) women and babies were isolated in a private room or within a dedicated ward (hospital and space dependent) and staff wore full protective gear etc. I can’t be 100% on that as I had a home birth, so it’s hearsay. Having left and come back CM was not in labour, so that might have affected any protocols in place. However, I’d assume a positive test would mean being admitted to the dedicate area with her baby. Equally, mum and baby are essentially counted as one person at that stage because of the importance of being together, so usually would be kept together at all costs unless simply impossible (eg. NICU or mother severely ill). However, I don’t know if the record of abandonment would affect that view either.

I think the fact it was 2021 is important because the hospitals had had more practice with the new restrictions, as well as some restrictions being lessened. I had midwives attend my homebirth (late but not because of Covid) and my partner and child were allowed to come in for the scan as the last appointment of the day, so they could do a full clean and disinfect after. It would have been a different experience to the initial panic of spring 2020 where hospitals were learning lots of new processes.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

While there may be truth to her statement, what other people do, in other places, is irrelevant to her case. Her information of these non-Western people is from X, news programs, simple video from afar, does she really know how they are caring for babies?
Did they get the idea of urinating into bottles from Calais?

I have knowledge of how other people care for their children in extreme environments and situations because I have studied it for social anthropology classes, and the first lesson in these classes is a warning against cultural bias, which is looking at another cultures beliefs or actions with the beliefs and actions of your culture.
For example, one big one that the professors like to use for this is a tribe who ate their dead, it was only discovered because there was a significant proportion of their population that was dying from some strange illness, the Australian government sent healthcare and researchers to investigate. They found it was a prion illness (like Mad Cow's disease), they called it Kuru. They couldn't work out how the people were contracting it though, as it lives in brains and can only be transferred from eating brains, they checked the animals on the island but could not find the source, it wasn't until someone died and they had a funeral and then chowed down on the dead person after, then the lightbulbs went off.
They told the islanders that they had to stop eating their dead as it was this action that was making them sick, the tribe strongly disagreed, it was a custom they had been taking part in for as long as they knew, they explained that it was how their ancestors spirit stayed with them. It was made illegal and it did start to get better, but then came back with a vengeance as they started up again in secret.

The point is, most of us as westerners with a western culture and upbringing are appalled that they eat their dead but to them they are appalled that we don't!

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

I would just like to point out that any details of courses/qualifications/employment etc listed on platforms such as LinkedIn should be taken with a bucket of salt as the person listing them is CM herself. I have close personal knowledge of a profile that was so edited and contrived it was closer to a fairy story than a CV!

You can get some qualifications and credentials endorsed by the university/college/school.
As for skills, co-workers or colleagues can also endorse.
ETA: Changed verified to endorsed and added last sentance.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

I think it's this Jackal - Napier applying put a hold on their ability to travel ( in case they tried to take the children out of the country presumably )


A second child was born in 2019.
Months later Marten's father, Napier Marten, applied for wardship of both children. A judge ruled there “had been an instance of domestic violence” in Marten and Gordon's relationship.
A third child was born in 2020 and an emergency protection order was obtained by social workers.

Constance Marten trial: aristocrat ‘posed as Irish Traveller’

All four of her older children were put up for adoption because of fears of physical violence between her and Mark Gordon, court has been told

www.thetimes.co.uk

This makes no sense (not aimed at you @Alyce, just a general statement).
Why would her father and family apply for ward of state for the children but then refuse to adopt the children when they were eventually taken?

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

Quite. IMO it has absolutely *nothing* to do with colour, and *everything* to do with behaviour.

RBBMFF
... class.
It's not behaviour; it has to do with class.
The British class social system has been in place for centuries.
Yes, CM's brother married a person of colour, but if you read the 'Vogue' like article, you will read that the bride was from a wealthy family that was close 'family friends' from when they were six years old.
MG came from a Windrush Generation family moving to Britain from the Caribbean after WWII.
He was not from a wealthy family.
He was then taken to the U.S. when he was young, then from the age of 14, lived in the penal system. After he had served his time, he was deported back to a country he did not remember.
He was not from a wealthy family.

This has nothing to do with colour and everything to do with class.