UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #6

[BackseatDriver]

I wonder if this is the reason for having more children, and why they were so loved?
The first one increased her income from £50 to £500 per week.

I don't think so. She chose time and time again to live as though in poverty despite having access to thousands of pounds (this was true before any SS input - prior to children they were living in the tent with urine filled bottles IIRC). I don't think money has ever been a factor IMO

 

[ShadowPuppet]

This makes no sense (not aimed at you @Alyce, just a general statement).
Why would her father and family apply for ward of state for the children but then refuse to adopt the children when they were eventually taken?

I don’t know a huge amount about wardship, but as far as I’m aware the children can still remain with their parents, but major decisions are taken out of their hands. (For example, medical care or leaving the country.) JMOO, but it could have been linked to concerns around moving country and keeping the children isolated or the potential of refusing medical care.

Whereas in adoption, it’s a lifelong commitment to parenting those children. Equally, kinship care in a situation where children are permanently removed would be a long term commitment. Both sets of parents may have been not deemed able to to provide suitable care for the needs of the children (can be as simple as due to health issues or commitments like regular travel) or may have felt unable to take all the children and felt unable to take only one or two or have felt generally unable to provide for their needs. Social workers would have had frank conversations with them about the realities of parenting traumatised children, explained any difficulties they might have been having while in foster care and the kinds of issues lots of traumatised children have. They may have felt unable to manage those issues long term and felt that an adoptive family with a parent or parents who had gone through the process, committed to parenting children who’d experienced trauma and been introduced to PACE (Dan Hughes) and therapeutic parenting would be able to parent them more effectively.

Also, we don’t know what the trauma CM mentioned speaking out about was and whether that had an impact on any decisions around anyone. It could very well not have done, but I thought it should be mentioned.

As the set-up for both differs so much, I think that’s why they applied for the wardship, but turned down the full time care (or maybe were found not to be suitable).

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

This makes no sense (not aimed at you @Alyce, just a general statement).
Why would her father and family apply for ward of state for the children but then refuse to adopt the children when they were eventually taken?

Not considered the best option in the long term, I can only imagine.

 

[crespo29]

RBBMFF
... class.
It's not behaviour; it has to do with class.
The British class social system has been in place for centuries.
Yes, CM's brother married a person of colour, but if you read the 'Vogue' like article, you will read that the bride was from a wealthy family that was close 'family friends' from when they were six years old.
MG came from a Windrush Generation family moving to Britain from the Caribbean after WWII.
He was not from a wealthy family.
He was then taken to the U.S. when he was young, then from the age of 14, lived in the penal system. After he had served his time, he was deported back to a country he did not remember.
He was not from a wealthy family.

This has nothing to do with colour and everything to do with class.

Just a minor point, but interesting s it indicates MG likes playing games. When he was pretending to be a friend of CM's during the birth of their first child, he was calling himself Mr Aymer. Mr Aymour was the best man at CMs brother's wedding as featured in Vogue when CM's brother married his best man's sister.

 

[elliefant]

In my opinion I doubt CM’s parents antipathy towards MG needs to have anything to do with racism or classism.

We are told they were in the habit of using private investigators. They certainly knew then that MG had served 20 years of a 40 year sentence for very violent rape (with children in the house) and another serious assault. Then being released only because he was deported.

Knowing that, what parent would not be worried about their daughter getting involved with him and having children with him?

Even before they consider her “falling out of a window”.

 

[Nikynoo]

Just a minor point, but interesting s it indicates MG likes playing games. When he was pretending to be a friend of CM's during the birth of their first child, he was calling himself Mr Aymer. Mr Aymour was the best man at CMs brother's wedding as featured in Vogue when CM's brother married his best man's sister.

Do you think it was MGs idea to use this name, or CMs?

 

[Nikynoo]

I don’t know a huge amount about wardship, but as far as I’m aware the children can still remain with their parents, but major decisions are taken out of their hands. (For example, medical care or leaving the country.) JMOO, but it could have been linked to concerns around moving country and keeping the children isolated or the potential of refusing medical care.

Whereas in adoption, it’s a lifelong commitment to parenting those children. Equally, kinship care in a situation where children are permanently removed would be a long term commitment. Both sets of parents may have been not deemed able to to provide suitable care for the needs of the children (can be as simple as due to health issues or commitments like regular travel) or may have felt unable to take all the children and felt unable to take only one or two or have felt generally unable to provide for their needs. Social workers would have had frank conversations with them about the realities of parenting traumatised children, explained any difficulties they might have been having while in foster care and the kinds of issues lots of traumatised children have. They may have felt unable to manage those issues long term and felt that an adoptive family with a parent or parents who had gone through the process, committed to parenting children who’d experienced trauma and been introduced to PACE (Dan Hughes) and therapeutic parenting would be able to parent them more effectively.

Also, we don’t know what the trauma CM mentioned speaking out about was and whether that had an impact on any decisions around anyone. It could very well not have done, but I thought it should be mentioned.

As the set-up for both differs so much, I think that’s why they applied for the wardship, but turned down the full time care (or maybe were found not to be suitable).

Applications for Wardship are applications to make the child a ward of court, not applications to place the child with another person. There is more information here Wardship - childlawadvice.org.uk.

I think this application forced SS to intervene a second time. Also interesting to note is that Passport Orders can be granted.

 

[Obergine]

When CM talked about her children being abused in care I wonder if they were ever in her family's care and if that is the implication?

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Just a minor point, but interesting s it indicates MG likes playing games. When he was pretending to be a friend of CM's during the birth of their first child, he was calling himself Mr Aymer. Mr Aymour was the best man at CMs brother's wedding as featured in Vogue when CM's brother married his best man's sister.

Racist, classist? Or just not wanting a sex offender in the family?
Are there parents who are loving the idea of their daughter having a relationship, and children, with a sex offender?
Let me know.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

When CM talked about her children being abused in care I wonder if they were ever in her family's care and if that is the implication?

Was it true? That the children were abused in care?

 

[Smccat]

Speaking also of implied statements.

I have to admit that I didn’t pick up the possible inference of all their cars breaking in ‘questionable’ circumstances might be inferring PI’s were tampering with their cars, but I know some of us did.

If that was the case they’d have known exactly where they were at all, or much of the time - despite the burner type phones being untraceable - and that this could have been prevented and intervened on sooner. Doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Speaking also of implied statements.

I have to admit that I didn’t pick up the possible inference of all their cars breaking in ‘questionable’ circumstances might be inferring PI’s were tampering with their cars, but I know some of us did.

If that was the case they’d have known exactly where they were at all, or much of the time - despite the burner type phones being untraceable - and that this could have been prevented and intervened on sooner. Doesn’t make sense to me.

Maybe it’s easier for CM & MG to blame their own problems on the Family, the System, the Trustees, Western Civilization than to admit that their own “system” is flawed and causes most of their current problems.

 

[Smccat]

Maybe it’s easier for CM & MG to blame their own problems on the Family, the System, the Trustees, Western Civilization than to admit that their own “system” is flawed and causes most of their current problems.

Yes totally. But I’m just sitting on the side of who is she expecting to buy some of this stuff.

There may be some truth in some, or none, of it.

 

[missmargot]

Maybe it’s easier for CM & MG to blame their own problems on the Family, the System, the Trustees, Western Civilization than to admit that their own “system” is flawed and causes most of their current problems

I don’t think it has to be one or the other. CM’s family and the trustees may well have made life very difficult for her, alongside her own unquestioningly poor decisions. A pattern of unhealthy relationships (the cult and a 10 year relationship with a registered sex offender) would usually have a root cause and I am curious as to what that was.

I’m not defending what happened to baby Victoria or arguing that CM did not make some horrendous decisions, but I also believe she is a victim in some ways herself.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Yes totally. But I’m just sitting on the side of who is she expecting to buy some of this stuff.

There may be some truth in some, or none, of it.

For example, finding it unlikely that CM’s family, hired people, thru Private Investigators, to tamper with their 14 vehicles to get them to explode. If they wanted to get them killed, think the hired specialists would realise the exploding cars weren’t working, no way would try it 14 times, or even two times. What purpose do exploding cars serve her Family?
It’s possible her whole family is as wacky as she, and maybe they are hiring people to blow up every car.
IMO they are not maintaining vehicles, or else doing non-standard maintenance which is dangerous. Anyone else in this chat have dozen cars go on fire/explode??

 

[Nikynoo]

When CM talked about her children being abused in care I wonder if they were ever in her family's care and if that is the implication?

According to Fridays Podcast ‘The Trial’, she didn’t say who the foster parents were, only that they were removed from those foster parents because they were being abused.

 

[crespo29]

Going back over the case, I think I have worked out how the spilt between Constance and her family may have come about. The Grandmother died in 2010, I think she was the anchor for the family. Constance's father seemed to go off the rails and passed on the estate to his eldest son Max. Constance was the oldest child but possibly things were said about her being like her father, possibly going off the rails. She had the reputation of a wild child and come under the influence of a cult in Africa, so maybe Private Eyes were tracking her to dig up more dirt. Who was the one to profit from this? Max her younger brother, and he wanted to sell the estate whereas Constance thought that it was her beloved grandmother who wanted to keep it. I think she fell out big-time with Max.

 

[rightsaidfred]

For example, finding it unlikely that CM’s family, hired people, thru Private Investigators, to tamper with their 14 vehicles to get them to explode. If they wanted to get them killed, think the hired specialists would realise the exploding cars weren’t working, no way would try it 14 times, or even two times. What purpose do exploding cars serve her Family?
It’s possible her whole family is as wacky as she, and maybe they are hiring people to blow up every car.
IMO they are not maintaining vehicles, or else doing non-standard maintenance which is dangerous. Anyone else in this chat have dozen cars go on fire/explode??

The discretionary trust sent CM £15,590 for the purchase of a car

Constance Marten given nearly £50k before going on the run with baby

Aristocrat still had nearly £19k in bank just before search launched for fugitive couple and baby Victoria

www.theguardian.com

Assuming the trustees and the one hiring private investigators are on the same page, it would make no sense for them to be sending money for a car purchase and then sending private investigators to disable the cars.

I wonder what the garages have said about the causes - if they keep buying bangers which leak oil, for instance, which they don't refill, then it's no wonder. On the other hand, if the spark plugs keep doing a disappearing act then she might have a point.

One option could be if they had heard about the idea of using vegetable oil as an alternative to diesel, but had failed to heed the caveats and safeguards required, and had failed to learn from their own mistakes.

Can vegetable oil be used as fuel for your car?

WARNING: Drivers should only use fuels as advised by their manufacturers. Any modifications made to your car may cause damage to your vehicle and invalidate your warranty.

www.arnoldclark.com

According to Fridays Podcast ‘The Trial’, she didn’t say who the foster parents were, only that they were removed from those foster parents because they were being abused.

Well, CM said they were being abused. It's not uncommon for birth parents to make allegations because they're lashing out, or because they believe the child will be returned to them.

Of course abuse can happen in foster care. There was one horrific case, local to me, of a foster carer who raped his own teenage foster child.

 

[ShadowPuppet]

According to Fridays Podcast ‘The Trial’, she didn’t say who the foster parents were, only that they were removed from those foster parents because they were being abused.

Its worth remembering though that children almost always have to be removed to investigate an allegation, so the removal isn’t evidence in itself. Most allegations against foster carers are false and it means the child goes through more disruption for no reason.

I hope, for the children’s sake, they weren’t being abused. It’s unlikely, but not impossible. I think if all of what CM says is true it would be a truly astounding case and life - hunted by private detectives who sabotage their cars in repeated attempts to kill them, driven into poverty whilst fleeing a traumatising aristocratic family, seeking an alternative lifestyle and wrongly judged after accidentally falling from a window and culminating in permanent removal following abuse within care. It seems highly unlikely, again not impossible, but JMO that I think the truth is in between. I don’t doubt there were family traumas and we perhaps don’t know the half of that, I don’t doubt she suffered in the cult or that she loved her children and was devastated to have them removed. I do, however, doubt that their relationship is honey and flowers and that she could show her children love through consistent parenting that understood the importance of a safe non- violent environment. I think they’ve both come across as being difficult to engage with at different points and the abuse allegations could be part of that, as it is for many birth parents. It’s difficult to know without clear confirmation.

(I haven’t listened to the podcast yet, so assuming it wasn’t confirmed by anyone by CM?)

 

[Cherwell]

Also pretending to not know Liverpool is a port. Why did you go there if you didn't know that? She's lying about everything

I am also struggling with that part.
But if, for some strange reason, neither of them had heard of Liverpool and had no idea it hosts a very large seaport - then why indeed did they go there ?

I think she meant that she didn't know if it was a ferry port. Not all ports have passenger ferries, eg Southampton used to but no longer does.

I haven't been following this case closely so have just been skimming through.