UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #6

[rockthecasbah]

Please clarify .. What is "SS" an acronym for? Social Services, or ...

Thank you.

Yes

 

[DianaWW]

RBBMFF
But they apparently told her that if she left it would be classed as abandonment, so she still would have been classed as abandoning the baby, even if she did take the test.
Why are there no SS representatives testifying?

Well yes, which is why I said I didn’t understand her leaving and not accepting the video link.

But regardless, even though it was still classed as abandonment, don’t you think that it would have been better for her (and her baby) if she’d gone back? And taken the test?

I’m not sure what any social service representatives could add by testifying. Most of the evidence from them was part of the agreed facts, so is accepted by the defence.

 

[DianaWW]

RBBMFF
Why should the fact that CM is a white western woman have anything to do with the court taking a Western perspective?
What I mean is, it is true what she said, that there are people all over the world who live in tents, all year round, and in extreme environments, much worse than Sussex in January.
They have lived this way for centuries.
Imagine if for some reason or another, these people who live in extreme environments and live in tents suddenly have to obide by western perspective? They would likely all have their children taken away from them, kinda like what they did with indigenous children, taking them away from their parents, forcing them to practice a religion they did not understand, changing their names to European ones... you see where I am going.
That is cultural bias and is unfair and cruel in so many ways.

I think this is the point CM was trying to make.
JMO and food for thought.

ETA: and I am sure that the people who live in tents in extreme environments would prefer to not have to live in a tent.

Exactly. They would prefer not to have to live in a tent. CM may have felt that this was the option available to her but that’s not true. It was a choice.

And it’s not just the fact they were living in a tent. It’s the type of tent, along with the lack of appropriate clothing and bedding for the baby. I’m sure babies living in igloos are not left to wear nothing but a baby grow, while sleeping in a unicorn sleeping bag from Argos…So this isn’t just a cultural thing at all IMO, which is why her comparison in court to other cultures and refugees seems disingenuous.

 

[Legally Bland]

RBBMFF
But they apparently told her that if she left it would be classed as abandonment, so she still would have been classed as abandoning the baby, even if she did take the test.
Why are there no SS representatives testifying?

I guess there's a difference between a short abandonment, which CM and MG may believe is justified to attend court, and a continued abandonment for refusing a covid test.

SS evidence was agreed facts.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

I think she’s a piece of work, frankly.

JMO of course.

 

[Maltesepuppy]

Exactly. They would prefer not to have to live in a tent. CM may have felt that this was the option available to her but that’s not true. It was a choice.

And it’s not just the fact they were living in a tent. It’s the type of tent, along with the lack of appropriate clothing and bedding for the baby. I’m sure babies living in igloos are not left to wear nothing but a baby grow, while sleeping in a unicorn sleeping bag from Argos…So this isn’t just a cultural thing at all IMO, which is why her comparison in court to other cultures and refugees seems disingenuous.

Yes all of this. And to add, the communities that CM is talking to are that, communities. Likely support each other, emotionally if nothing else.
In this case, they were isolated. Everyone, according to how CM was a potential enemy who would recognise them and turn them over; the police could turn up at any time and her family was bugging her phones, according to CM.
The communities that live in tents or igloos are more likely to have some system that ensures food availability, as opposed to rummaging in bins while there is a bank balance available, with a lot of money.
Aside from the lack of preparation, CM was ,by her own admission in a high state of anxiety and babies, even newborn babies, pick on this.
My biggest worry is that all the stress and instability affected MC milk supply, despite CM assertion that she was "feeding well"
JMO, MOO

 

[ShadowPuppet]

RBBMFF
Why should the fact that CM is a white western woman have anything to do with the court taking a Western perspective?
What I mean is, it is true what she said, that there are people all over the world who live in tents, all year round, and in extreme environments, much worse than Sussex in January.
They have lived this way for centuries.
Imagine if for some reason or another, these people who live in extreme environments and live in tents suddenly have to obide by western perspective? They would likely all have their children taken away from them, kinda like what they did with indigenous children, taking them away from their parents, forcing them to practice a religion they did not understand, changing their names to European ones... you see where I am going.
That is cultural bias and is unfair and cruel in so many ways.

I think this is the point CM was trying to make.
JMO and food for thought.

ETA: and I am sure that the people who live in tents in extreme environments would prefer to not have to live in a tent.

I think that’s the problem though. She isn’t an indigenous adult who’s had to face the attempted erosion of her culture. She’s white British and was born into the aristocracy. Yes, she’s no longer living as an aristocrat, but equally, she did not move to another culture and learn from them and apply this in the UK (even if there’s a possibility she believes she did). She seems to be taken with the idea of this alternative lifestyle (her description of her living situation in a tent) but, equally, we haven’t heard that they met their own basic needs or heard any mention of something providing warmth, appropriate clothing, food etc. There are absolutely devastating issues where a western perspective has been wrongly applied in many areas, both from childcare and parenting to testing attachment in psychology to physical medicine, however, this isn’t CM story and I feel it’s wrong of her to apply it to herself. She’s been hurt by trauma, but her experience of oppression will have been very different.

Jmo, but if CM had wanted, she could have campaigned about the laws that the UK currently has (which were recently tightened) around the right to live these lifestyles. She could also have looked into the ways to legally live in a tent, more likely a Yurt style tent. The UK has a 28 day rule around camping, even on private property, so it needs planning permission (mainly to avoid human waste building on a site, so things like a permanent toilet would be recommended). However, people successfully get the permission in the UK. Lots choose to do it in a smallholding (homestead) type way. Her reason for not doing this appears to be she was being trailed by private investigators hired by her family, but it’s a strange one because the aim of what her family wanted seems unclear - it’s a will dispute, so I don’t quite understand all the fear around it. Obviously the fear might be linked to other family disputes and traumas (jmo) but it’s an odd reason to be ‘fleeing’.

I don’t doubt CM felt persecuted. I don’t doubt she’s affected by trauma. I do wonder if this caused distorted thinking and specific thought patterns that drove her, rather than the reality of the situation - and whether MG fed these persecuted thought cycles rather than suggesting other things.

I think we should be careful assuming everyone living in a tent in extreme weather wouldn’t want to be. However, the refugee camp at Calais is an obvious one where they certainly wouldn’t want to be in those living conditions and haven’t chosen to live in a tent or have little to no health care access.

 

[rightsaidfred]

But what she said is true.
Children ARE living in tents worldwide, and they are fine and survive.
That is objective.
There is an obvious difference herein in this case: WHERE they were born, raised, and educated, as well as their 'culture.'
Societies abide to their own cultures, it is cultural evolution in it's prime.
But who is to say their culture is superior to another?
JMO

Are they fine, and do they survive?

The cases are rarely high profile, and all we normally see in the press is kids running around refugee camps etc. - we don't see the dead bodies. As there are so few high profile cases, I will mention Shamima Begum, whose three children all died, the youngest in a refugee camp, at a similar age to Victoria, of a lung infection.

Some babies survive in tented refugee camps, but some babies die, including ones that would have survived in other circumstances.

This (enormous) study found a rate of 12-56 neonatal deaths per 1000 live births in refugee camps (for comparison, the UK rate is 1.65 per 1000).
Neonatal mortality burden and trends in UNHCR refugee camps, 2006–2017: a retrospective analysis - BMC Public Health

I dare say that access to clean water, sanitation and food is frequently better in refugee camps than where these two were.

But we should be aware of survivor bias.

 

[Henrymoggington]

IMO she's not getting away with anything even if she walks. She's got four children taken, never to be returned, and one dead. Whether or not she can ever see her part in that, the outcome is horrific enough already IMO.

If they both end up without a custodial sentence, how long before she is pregnant again!

 

[Zuleika]

IMO she's not getting away with anything even if she walks. She's got four children taken, never to be returned, and one dead. Whether or not she can ever see her part in that, the outcome is horrific enough already IMO.

Is it correct that her other four children will never be returned ? There was talk of her father applying for wardship so where in these threads iirc , then I saw adoption mentioned . Has either been clarified ?

 

[rightsaidfred]

Is it correct that her other four children will never be returned ? There was talk of her father applying for wardship so where in these threads iirc , then I saw adoption mentioned . Has either been clarified ?

The children were all initially fostered, and then adopted outside of the extended family.

The wardship application was made when the children were still in CM and MG's care.

They'll be able to write annually through something called "letterbox" (I'm sure this year's letter is going to be tricky...) but not see them in person again until they're adults, and only then if both parties want to see each other.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

If they both end up without a custodial sentence, how long before she is pregnant again!

I agree strongly that this is the next problem but at the same time it's not the point of the case, so that issue can't be addressed by the court.

I strongly feel that the only defence that leaves them less culpable as criminals is to argue they're profoundly mentally unwell and therefore made choices than an average well person would not. Otherwise, they'll be doing prison time IMO for the death of baby V. Just my opinion.

 

[amaraya]

I had to escape oppressive and bigoted family, Constance Marten tells court

Constance Marten has insisted she had to escape because of her “oppressive and bigoted family”, a court heard.

www.telegraph.co.uk

That's a strong implication that the family are racist (and by implication MG is really just the male equivalent of Meghan Markle). I cannot think of any other explanation given the reference to not wanting the children in the family line.

I wonder if the prosecution barrister is aware that her elder brother married a black woman, had the wedding featured in Vogue magazine, and was still bought a house...

Which is going to make her thinly veiled accusations of racism look rather implausible.

Personally i wouldnt be surprised if this was the case- but- this is no reason for her behavior, actions and treatment of her previous children

 

[Telltale]

Personally i wouldnt be surprised if this was the case- but- this is no reason for her behavior, actions and treatment of her previous children

Her brother is married to a black woman. Apparently she was offered house money.

I don't think there is any evidence of bigotry. I don't think she should get to frame them as bigots for being against a relationship with a convicted violent sex offender who spent 20 years in a Florida prison and is a decade older than her.

 

[Henrymoggington]

Her brother is married to a black woman. Apparently she was offered house money.

I don't think there is any evidence of bigotry. I don't think she should get to frame them as bigots for being against a relationship with a convicted violent sex offender who spent 20 years in a Florida prison and is a decade older than her.

I was just thinking about this.. she seems to be putting most of their actions down to the need to hide from her family, who were allegedly tapping her phones and email… I wonder why no one from her family has been asked to give evidence as to whether this is true? If it isn’t, she appears to have huge paranoia IMO

 

[Alyce]

Is it correct that her other four children will never be returned ? There was talk of her father applying for wardship so where in these threads iirc , then I saw adoption mentioned . Has either been clarified ?

A second child was born in 2019.
Months later Marten's father, Napier Marten, applied for wardship of both children.
A judge ruled there “had been an instance of domestic violence” in Marten and Gordon's relationship.
A third child was born in 2020 and an emergency protection order was obtained by social workers.

Constance Marten trial: aristocrat ‘posed as Irish Traveller’

All four of her older children were put up for adoption because of fears of physical violence between her and Mark Gordon, court has been told

www.thetimes.co.uk

The court also heard that the couple’s other children were put up for adoption following concerns about domestic abuse

All four children were made subject to care and placement orders in January 2022.

No cause of death for Constance Marten's baby due to condition of body

The cause of death of Constance Marten’s baby could not be ascertained due to the condition of her body, the Old Bailey heard.

www.theargus.co.uk

She said her family would "try to get my children taken off me" and "refused to take them in when they were put up for adoption

Constance Marten 'feels responsible' over death of her newborn baby, court hears

Marten, 36, said she and her partner Mark Gordon, 49, disguised themselves with caps and glasses while they were on the run.

news.sky.com

 

[Twittens]

The children were all initially fostered, and then adopted outside of the extended family.

The wardship application was made when the children were still in CM and MG's care.

They'll be able to write annually through something called "letterbox" (I'm sure this year's letter is going to be tricky...) but not see them in person again until they're adults, and only then if both parties want to see each other.

It would be interesting to know whether they've taken advantage of the 'letterbox' facility.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

Please clarify .. What is "SS" an acronym for? Social Services, or ...

Thank you.

Ss has been used by many in this post to mean social services, so yes, I was following suit

 

[Rolypolyoly]

If they both end up without a custodial sentence, how long before she is pregnant again!

This is one of my biggest worries.

 

[rockthecasbah]

It would be interesting to know whether they've taken advantage of the 'letterbox' facility.

I doubt it - in order to receive the letters they'd have to tell the authorities their address which they probably don't want to do