UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon & Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #2 *Arrest*

[irnbru]

I am surprised by how many people (not so many on here) seem shocked by the latest developments. As if the police would mount that sort of hunt without there being good reason to be concerned... did people really think this was all going to turn out to be a case of 'nasty social services teaming up with evil police to cruelly harass innocent family? Really?

 

[Furore]

I don't think it would meet the threshold in the UK. Intent is the big one

Thank you

 

[QB2022]

I am surprised by how many people (not so many on here) seem shocked by the latest developments. As if the police would mount that sort of hunt without there being good reason to be concerned... did people really think this was all going to turn out to be a case of 'nasty social services teaming up with evil police to cruelly harass innocent family? Really?

People aren't great at reading between the lines!

I agree with the poster who stated that the fact she is middle class actually makes it more obvious there's an issue, notoriously middle class/wealthy parents have a much easier time with SS. It is the working classes who tend to come under heavier pressure.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

Just a few more thoughts.

In 1986, Wild Park in Brighton was where they found the remains of the "Babes in the woods," two nine-year-old girls, Nicola Fellows and Karen Hadaway.
Babes in the Wood murders (Brighton) Wikipedia

As I have said earlier, I grew up and lived throughout my young adult years 20 miles from Brighton. It was somewhere teenagers, and young adults go for days or nights out; it did (I'm not sure now as I left England 15 years ago) have a vibrant nightlife.
Everyone from my town knew about Wild Park; you didn't go there, and even locals didn't. If the same attitudes are around today, it would be a good place for them to hide out because of this.
Also, Brighton is one of England's most cosmopolitan and alternative lifestyle places. As I mentioned in previous posts, having an acquaintance or two who live in Brighton is almost a rite of passage. If they wanted to find someone to look after the baby, whether for an hour to go shopping or a more permanent situation, they would find the kind of person to do that in Brighton. CM was a student, and as a student, she would have student acquaintances. These people would be millennials; this article shows a survey result that Brighton is the second most desirable place for young people.
Where do young Brits want to live? Mortgage Introducer
From the article:
"After London, the buzzing seaside resort of Brighton was preferred by 18.8% of younger people, followed closely by the UK’s second-largest city, Birmingham, at 18.3%. Picturesque Edinburgh (17.5%) and Bath (17.2%) also made it to the top five dream locations of the younger generations."
It wouldn't surprise me if CM had contacts in Brighton, or failing that, she knew she could lay low and not stand out too much.

JMO, IMO

 

[rightsaidfred]

Ha, in UK you can be arrested on suspicion - of almost anything

No, you can only be arrested if there is a reasonable suspicion that you've committed a specific crime.

The level of proof required is relatively low, however.

Here in NZ suppression rules start as soon as someone is arrested. Can someone explain the difference between being arrested and being charged? I don’t get it!

Arrested = suspicion you've done something, police officer can bring you into custody for 24 hours (longer in certain circumstances, with magistrate approval)

Charged = the Crown Prosecution Service, which is independent of the police, has reviewed the evidence and has decided that there's both a realistic prospect of conviction, and it's in the public interest to proceed
The CPS: How we make our decisions

After charging, the accused may be either released on bail (usually with certain conditions, like not contacting the victim) or remanded (kept in prison until the trial) if it's a very serious charge or they are too risky to be allowed out on bail. IMO the likelihood is both CM and MG will be remanded because they're clearly a flight risk.

After that it will proceed either to a jury trial (if they plead not guilty) or straight to sentencing (if they plead guilty), with other factors going on in the background like a psychiatric assessment.

 

[Nikynoo]

Could anyone better informed let me know when culpable manslaughter becomes murder? Surely if there is reasonable foresight of death occurring from actions it is murder? Eg if you put a newborn baby out in the freezing cold and don’t feed it, that is surely murder? (Appreciate more difficult test for court)

there needs to be intent.

 

[infinit]

I am surprised by how many people (not so many on here) seem shocked by the latest developments. As if the police would mount that sort of hunt without there being good reason to be concerned... did people really think this was all going to turn out to be a case of 'nasty social services teaming up with evil police to cruelly harass innocent family? Really?

It was unusual circumstances with the car, their nomad lifestyle, his previous conviction, her rumoured history with her other children, the lack of medical care etc. There was multiple reasons or a combination that could have prompted the desire to want to get a hold of them. Personally I didn't expect it to end "well" but how this is seemingly going is literally the worst case scenario. I don't think a bit of shock is unreasonable tbh.

 

[iamshadow21]

I hate to go there, but if that baby never left London, and that baby's dead, rather than alive with some confederate keeping them safe, then that poor wee mite is most likely in landfill and will never be found. Infants are so tiny, and landfills are brutal, destructive places. Even in the winter, the temperatures in garbage will accelerate decomposition, never mind the bulldozers, the animals, the bacteria.

I hope to be wrong, believe me, but I fear this little one's mortal remains will never be found.

 

[rightsaidfred]

Could anyone better informed let me know when culpable manslaughter becomes murder? Surely if there is reasonable foresight of death occurring from actions it is murder? Eg if you put a newborn baby out in the freezing cold and don’t feed it, that is surely murder? (Appreciate more difficult test for court)

Homicide: Murder and Manslaughter | The Crown Prosecution Service

We don't have culpable manslaughter as a specific charge in England & Wales. References can, however, be made to voluntary or involuntary manslaughter.

The difference between manslaughter and murder centres around intent and whether or not there's a partial defence to murder (such as insanity).

From what we have been told, and assuming the baby has sadly died, gross negligence manslaughter is an entirely appropriate charge. It carries a very stiff sentence (up to life imprisonment) but does not require proof they intended to kill their baby - and I doubt they did. They've just been utterly negligent as parents, and it has foreseeably resulted in the baby's death.

Gross negligence manslaughter – Sentencing

www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk

 

[Furore]

Homicide: Murder and Manslaughter | The Crown Prosecution Service

We don't have culpable manslaughter as a specific charge in England & Wales. References can, however, be made to voluntary or involuntary manslaughter.

The difference between manslaughter and murder centres around intent and whether or not there's a partial defence to murder (such as insanity).

From what we have been told, and assuming the baby has sadly died, gross negligence manslaughter is an entirely appropriate charge. It carries a very stiff sentence (up to life imprisonment) but does not require proof they intended to kill their baby - and I doubt they did. They've just been utterly negligent as parents, and it has foreseeably resulted in the baby's death.

Gross negligence manslaughter – Sentencing

www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk

Really helpful thanks

 

[Nell91]

Money talks, especially in a court room. Hoping whatever happens is fair and just.

 

[Alyce]

I hate to go there, but if that baby never left London, and that baby's dead, rather than alive with some confederate keeping them safe, then that poor wee mite is most likely in landfill and will never be found. Infants are so tiny, and landfills are brutal, destructive places. Even in the winter, the temperatures in garbage will accelerate decomposition, never mind the bulldozers, the animals, the bacteria.

I hope to be wrong, believe me, but I fear this little one's mortal remains will never be found.

If you scroll back to post 525….police stated that they know the baby was alive on January 8 and taken from London to Newhaven


edited as there’s been a tidy up and post #s have changed

 

[iamshadow21]

Homicide: Murder and Manslaughter | The Crown Prosecution Service

We don't have culpable manslaughter as a specific charge in England & Wales. References can, however, be made to voluntary or involuntary manslaughter.

The difference between manslaughter and murder centres around intent and whether or not there's a partial defence to murder (such as insanity).

From what we have been told, and assuming the baby has sadly died, gross negligence manslaughter is an entirely appropriate charge. It carries a very stiff sentence (up to life imprisonment) but does not require proof they intended to kill their baby - and I doubt they did. They've just been utterly negligent as parents, and it has foreseeably resulted in the baby's death.

Gross negligence manslaughter – Sentencing

www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk

Are there potential enhancements of charges or sentencing because the child was an infant in their care?

 

[iamshadow21]

If you scroll back to post 525….police stated that they know the baby was alive on January 8 and taken from London to Newhaven


edited as there’s been a tidy up and post #s have changed

That's still nearly two months since Last Seen. I know best case scenario is that they're looking for a live infant, second best is looking for a very recently deceased one that they can gather evidence from and bury with dignity, but the third option is a baby that died weeks to months ago. And for the third option, the most likely disposal method apart from the places they're looking - woods, allotments - is in a garbage bin or a dumpster. London or Newhaven, if the baby's been deceased for some time, the grim reality is there may not be remains that are recoverable.

 

[Lincoln34]

there needs to be intent.

Yes, for murder there does need to be some form of intent. However if the child is deceased - and I really , really hope that is not the case , and if it died from lack of care, then I think that a more likely charge would be Gross Negligence Manslaughter IMO.

The parents had a legal duty of care to their baby. If they have breached that duty in a negligent manner to a degree which is considered by the CPS to be truly exceptionally bad, resulting in the baby's death, then prosecution for GNM would be the likely result IMO CPS Guidance on GNM -

Grossness​

In determining whether sufficient evidence exists for a realistic prospect of conviction, prosecutors need to also consider how the courts have determined the degree of negligence required for the offence.

The breach of duty must be so bad as to be gross, i.e. criminal. This was defined in Adomako [1994] 3 All ER 79 as follows: having regard to the risk of death involved, was the conduct of the defendant so bad in all the circumstances as to amount to a criminal act or omission? The prosecution must prove the following two elements:

a) that the circumstances were such that a reasonably prudent person in the defendant's position would have foreseen a serious and obvious risk of death arising from the defendant's act or omission;

b) that the breach of duty was, in all the circumstances, so reprehensible and fell so far below the standards to be expected of a person in the defendant's position with his qualifications, experience and responsibilities that it amounted to a crime.

 

[Nikynoo]

Yes, for murder there does need to be some form of intent. However if the child is deceased - and I really , really hope that is not the case , and if it died from lack of care, then I think that a more likely charge would be Gross Negligence Manslaughter IMO.

The parents had a legal duty of care to their baby. If they have breached that duty in a negligent manner to a degree which is considered by the CPS to be truly exceptionally bad, resulting in the baby's death, then prosecution for GNM would be the likely result IMO CPS Guidance on GNM -

Grossness​

In determining whether sufficient evidence exists for a realistic prospect of conviction, prosecutors need to also consider how the courts have determined the degree of negligence required for the offence.

The breach of duty must be so bad as to be gross, i.e. criminal. This was defined in Adomako [1994] 3 All ER 79 as follows: having regard to the risk of death involved, was the conduct of the defendant so bad in all the circumstances as to amount to a criminal act or omission? The prosecution must prove the following two elements:

a) that the circumstances were such that a reasonably prudent person in the defendant's position would have foreseen a serious and obvious risk of death arising from the defendant's act or omission;

b) that the breach of duty was, in all the circumstances, so reprehensible and fell so far below the standards to be expected of a person in the defendant's position with his qualifications, experience and responsibilities that it amounted to a crime.

They need a body first though don't they? Then they need to establish that the child died because of the negligence of the parents. What about Infanticide?

 

[Earthwindfire]

I hate to go there, but if that baby never left London, and that baby's dead, rather than alive with some confederate keeping them safe, then that poor wee mite is most likely in landfill and will never be found. Infants are so tiny, and landfills are brutal, destructive places. Even in the winter, the temperatures in garbage will accelerate decomposition, never mind the bulldozers, the animals, the bacteria.

I hope to be wrong, believe me, but I fear this little one's mortal remains will never be found.

I wonder if rather than landfill, if they will have held a burial for the baby out in the wild. It was clearly a very much wanted and loved child, regardless of their ability to care for it. With that in mind, I can't see them just disposing of it in the bin. I wonder if the reason for going to the South Downs may have been for the very purpose to burying the child.

 

[Earthwindfire]

They need a body first though don't they? Then they need to establish that the child died because of the negligence of the parents. What about Infanticide?

There are scenarios where a body won't be necessary and there will be a realistic prospect of conviction imo.

 

[Nikynoo]

There are scenarios where a body won't be necessary and there will be a realistic prospect of conviction imo.

could you expand please?

 

[Lucy6226]

I wonder if rather than landfill, if they will have held a burial for the baby out in the wild. It was clearly a very much wanted and loved child, regardless of their ability to care for it. With that in mind, I can't see them just disposing of it in the bin. I wonder if the reason for going to the South Downs may have been for the very purpose to burying the child.

In which case there would be little prospect of finding such a tiny body buried in the vast area such as the south downs imo. Look at poor Keith Bennett, still in Saddleworth Moors somewhere