UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon & Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #2 *Arrest*

[infinit]

It's dark out there now, and not warm. I don't prey, but I hope against all odds that the little wee mite is found safe and well soon.

I would go researching how long it's possible for a baby provided with some form of shelter and many layers to survive in near freezing temperatures but this has already put me in a bad mood and I'm not sure I've got it in me to go reading stories.

 

[sunnynz]

Here in NZ suppression rules start as soon as someone is arrested. Can someone explain the difference between being arrested and being charged? I don’t get it!

 

[DianaWW]

That is correct. Though they will have to do something within the next few hours as the first 24hrs will be up. I imagine they are hoping they can locate the baby in order to determine the charges.

Would the 24 hours start again with the latest arrest, for the manslaughter? Not sure how it works. MOO

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

Here in NZ suppression rules start as soon as someone is arrested. Can someone explain the difference between being arrested and being charged? I don’t get it!

An arrest is on suspicion of an offense. To charge there needs to be proof.

Once charged held until court.

An arrest can lead to bail or no further action too.

 

[infinit]

That is correct. Though they will have to do something within the next few hours as the first 24hrs will be up. I imagine they are hoping they can locate the baby in order to determine the charges.

I believe for a "serious" crime you can be held for 36 hours with the sign off of a senior officer. I assume gross negligence manslaughter fits the bill of "serious." Then anything extra needs magistrates.

Being arrested: your rights

The police have to follow strict rules if you're arrested, questioned or charged with a crime - you can get legal advice at a police station

www.gov.uk

 

[QB2022]

We have a much lower threshold for arrest here but this means there are quite strict timescales. To charge is a high threshold and they would potentially be bailed/held on remand until a court date.

 

[elliefant]

Here in NZ suppression rules start as soon as someone is arrested. Can someone explain the difference between being arrested and being charged? I don’t get it!

“Arrest” literally means “stop”. In UK police terms it means stop what you’re doing and help us with our enquiries. This may or may not lead to being formally charged with committing a crime.

 

[Alyce]

this was the article in our local news-tho am unsure if they stopped in haringey en route while in the cab from east london. Article suggests they went there first before getting a cab to newhaven..the polica confirmed the baby was alive when they got into the cab so assume they all went to newhaven…

https://www.sussexexpress.co.uk/new...r-new-born-baby-last-seen-in-newhaven-4007774
Detective Superintendent Lewis Basford said: “We have no evidence to suggest that they boarded a ferry in Newhaven, and we still strongly believe that they remain here in the UK – although they could be anywhere. Our enquiries also establish that the baby was alive and with them when they got the taxi to Newhaven.

Just bringing back this post by @Amaz0nia as it shows that police knew C & M had the baby with them when they taxied from Haringey to Newhaven
To add, I also thought baby had perhaps been left in London, but this quote proves otherwise.
However, we have no further proof re baby being with them since January 8

 

[GreekGal]

Yes but why would they? Everything they have done has been bent towards being seen and reported as little as possible, including it appears, camping through the coldest part of the year. They've been so successful there was not footage of them for nearly two months. For what purpose would they pretend to have a baby on them to random members of the public and CCTV?

To pretend it is still alive instead of owning up to the fact that they neglected to take it for medical attention and therefore allowing an unnecessary death. Even the buggy could have been a ruse. Whether they had the baby or not, they did not want to be found as either a) I suspect SS would remove the baby or b) the baby didn't survive past the first few days and they did nothing about it and they could be charged with gross negligence and allowing an unnecessary death.

 

[Davieson]

Here in NZ suppression rules start as soon as someone is arrested. Can someone explain the difference between being arrested and being charged? I don’t get it!

In UK, people are arrested because police wish to question them, even if they have nothing to do with the crime. Suspicion is enough.
Long gone are the days when people were 'helping police with their inquiries'

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

I believe for a "serious" crime you can be held for 36 hours with the sign off of a senior officer. I assume gross negligence manslaughter fits the bill of "serious." Then anything extra needs magistrates.

Being arrested: your rights

The police have to follow strict rules if you're arrested, questioned or charged with a crime - you can get legal advice at a police station

www.gov.uk

Yep, which may well apply here if nothing materialises tonight.

 

[Alyce]

OK thanks for that. Perhaps the police have other evidence apart from the CCTV shots which have been released to the public. From the ones I have seen, I have not seen hide nor hair of an actual baby.

I've just brought Amaz0nia's earlier post back up - post 528 - shows the quote re police knowing baby was in taxi on January 8
but no further proof since that date of the baby

 

[Telltale]

I believe for a "serious" crime you can be held for 36 hours with the sign off of a senior officer. I assume gross negligence manslaughter fits the bill of "serious." Then anything extra needs magistrates.

Being arrested: your rights

The police have to follow strict rules if you're arrested, questioned or charged with a crime - you can get legal advice at a police station

www.gov.uk

It can be extended with first a superintendent and the. Magistrates permission. They have to keep going back to court, but they can keep them up to 96 hours. This sort of situation would be a no-brainer. Though I imagine they would get charged with neglect or manslaughter and remanded (due to flight risk) before they were let go if the baby isn't found by then.

Being arrested: your rights

The police have to follow strict rules if you're arrested, questioned or charged with a crime - you can get legal advice at a police station

www.gov.uk

 

[Furore]

I would go researching how long it's possible for a baby provided with some form of shelter and many layers to survive in near freezing temperatures but this has already put me in a bad mood and I'm not sure I've got it in me to go reading stories.

Also not as simple as warmth cos babies that young need feeding often imo as risk of hypoglycaemia -> gets drowsy -> gets cold -> brain damage or death

It’s just outrageous. I actually cannot fathom the mental state required.

 

[Sillybilly]

I thought that applied only once a charge had been brought? There are no charges as yet. The press are still marking him as a rapist. See my post above from The Sun #482.

As stated in the Act:

from: Contempt of Court Act 1981

The initial steps of criminal proceedings are:—

(a)arrest without warrant;
(b)the issue, or in Scotland the grant, of a warrant for arrest;
(c)the issue of a summons to appear, or in Scotland the grant of a warrant to cite;
(d)the service of an indictment or other document specifying the charge;
(e)except in Scotland, oral charge;

From Contempt of Court, Reporting Restrictions and Restrictions on Public Access to Hearings

Active proceedings
Strict liability publication contempt only applies to legal proceedings that are "active" at the time of the publication. "Active" is defined in Schedule 1 Contempt of Court Act 1981 and proceedings are active if a summons has been issued or a defendant arrested without warrant. Where a warrant has been issued, proceedings cease to be active once twelve months' have elapsed without the suspect's arrest, and where there has been an arrest when the suspect is released without charge otherwise than on bail. Proceedings also cease to be active where they conclude by, inter alia, acquittal/sentence, any other order bringing proceedings to an end, or by discontinuance/operation of law.

 

[Earthwindfire]

Would the 24 hours start again with the latest arrest, for the manslaughter? Not sure how it works. MOO

Yes. It would reset the clock

 

[Furore]

Could anyone better informed let me know when culpable manslaughter becomes murder? Surely if there is reasonable foresight of death occurring from actions it is murder? Eg if you put a newborn baby out in the freezing cold and don’t feed it, that is surely murder? (Appreciate more difficult test for court)

 

[infinit]

Could anyone better informed let me know when culpable manslaughter becomes murder? Surely if there is reasonable foresight of death occurring from actions it is murder? Eg if you put a newborn baby out in the freezing cold and don’t feed it, that is surely murder? (Appreciate more difficult test for court)

You need intent to either kill or cause GBH.

 

[Furore]

You need intent to either kill or cause GBH.

Thank you! Tbh if that baby is out there and they’re refusing to say where I still consider that intent to kill imo. Feeling very sad about this case so might check back tomorrow x

 

[QB2022]

Could anyone better informed let me know when culpable manslaughter becomes murder? Surely if there is reasonable foresight of death occurring from actions it is murder? Eg if you put a newborn baby out in the freezing cold and don’t feed it, that is surely murder? (Appreciate more difficult test for court)

I don't think it would meet the threshold in the UK. Intent is the big one