UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon & Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #2 *Arrest*

[QB2022]

It is not my intention to come across as rude but is there a possibility your familiarity with SS is prior to UK’s adoption of the sexual offender’s registry? Otherwise how would his history “automatically trigger” an assessment? What you describe appears to mirror the registry’s function. However after 8 years a person convicted as a juvenile can apply to be removed from it, which could explain why MG is no longer on the registry.

Advice for people on the Sex Offender Register

Explore our advice for people on the sex offender register. Speak confidentially to one of our advisors. See more for information and guides.

www.nacro.org.uk

No, it is on the basis that having a sex offense in your criminal record is different to being on the sex offender registry.

Even being under 18 it will never be wiped from his record. Both for sentence length and a relevant crime for safeguarding. The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act | Support and Advice | Nacro

 

[MistyWaters]

No, it is on the basis that having a sex offense in your criminal record is different to being on the sex offender registry.

Even being under 18 it will never be wiped from his record. Both for sentence length and a relevant crime for safeguarding. The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act | Support and Advice | Nacro

From your link, this 1974 Act appears to be another document related to employment. I hope we can all agree that parenting is an entirely different topic?

BBM
This document should be considered a guide to the position in England and Wales only. You will find links to more detailed guidance on specific issues throughout, including references to guidance produced by the Disclosure and Barring Service (formerly the Criminal Records Bureau (CRB)) about eligibility for standard and enhanced criminal records certificates.

 What is the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974?
The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (“1974 Act”) primarily exists to support the rehabilitation into employment of reformed offenders who have stayed on the right side of the law.

Under the 1974 Act, following a specified period of time which varies according to the disposal administered or sentence passed, cautions and convictions (except those resulting in prison sentences of over four years and all public protection sentences*) may become spent. As a result the offender is regarded as rehabilitated.

For most purposes the 1974 Act treats a rehabilitated person as if he or she had never committed, or been charged with charged or prosecuted for or convicted of or sentenced for the offence and, as such, they are not required to declare their spent caution(s) or conviction(s), for example, when applying for most jobs or insurance, some educational courses and housing applications.

 

[QB2022]

From your link, this 1974 Act appears to be another document related to employment.

BBM
This document should be considered a guide to the position in England and Wales only. You will find links to more detailed guidance on specific issues throughout, including references to guidance produced by the Disclosure and Barring Service (formerly the Criminal Records Bureau (CRB)) about eligibility for standard and enhanced criminal records certificates.

 What is the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974?
The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (“1974 Act”) primarily exists to support the rehabilitation into employment of reformed offenders who have stayed on the right side of the law.

Under the 1974 Act, following a specified period of time which varies according to the disposal administered or sentence passed, cautions and convictions (except those resulting in prison sentences of over four years and all public protection sentences*) may become spent. As a result the offender is regarded as rehabilitated.

For most purposes the 1974 Act treats a rehabilitated person as if he or she had never committed, or been charged with charged or prosecuted for or convicted of or sentenced for the offence and, as such, they are not required to declare their spent caution(s) or conviction(s), for example, when applying for most jobs or insurance, some educational courses and housing applications.

The bit applicable was the chart at the end. That is the same whether its employment or not. It was to show that some crimes are never wiped from your record even aged under 18. Think about it, if they were wiped, the rehab of offenders act would be pointless as they could be wiped before you seek employment. Records for some offences are never wiped, which was my point.

Our punitive approach to children’s criminal records confirms this.


We find there is a big issue here when under 18s comit crimes they only prosecute as an absolute last resort because the records aren't wiped and it's well known to screw up lives long term. They prefer to deal with children out of the CJS as much as possible to avoid it but serious offences like this would also be prosecuted and therefore be on record.

 

[msmarple99]

Can someone enlighten me as to where a tent was reported?

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

STOP with the references and opinions about addictions. Unless there is a known fact to support such speculation it is NOT allowed as it is not victim friendly.

 

[MistyWaters]

The bit applicable was the chart at the end. That is the same whether its employment or not. It was to show that some crimes are never wiped from your record even aged under 18. Think about it, if they were wiped, the rehab of offenders act would be pointless as they could be wiped before you seek employment. Records for some offences are never wiped, which was my point.

Our punitive approach to children’s criminal records confirms this.


We find there is a big issue here when under 18s comit crimes they only prosecute as an absolute last resort because the records aren't wiped and it's well known to screw up lives long term. They prefer to deal with children out of the CJS as much as possible to avoid it but serious offences like this would also be prosecuted and therefore be on record.

Thank you, but when crimes are wiped from someone’s record has no impact on whether or not any couple is capable of parenting a child, nor is there any documentation to support a child is arbitrarily removed by SS in instances such as the father being convicted of a sexual offence in another country at the age of 14. Therefore that this couple is on the run because the baby would’ve been immediately taken from them based on MG’s criminal history is unsupported speculation only.

Whether or not prior children were removed or for what reasons is entirely unknown. However if that occurred there are many more possibilities aside from MG’s record but it’s inappropriate to speculate on the several possible reasons.

For all we know the family is somewhere safe, being sheltered by a kindred spirit until the seek-and-find frenzy dies down. Time is on their side. JMO

 

[kittythehare]

Thank you, but when crimes are wiped from someone’s record has no impact on whether or not any couple is capable of parenting a child, nor is there any documentation to support a child is arbitrarily removed by SS in instances such as the father being convicted of a sexual offence in another country at the age of 14. Therefore that this couple is on the run because the baby would’ve been immediately taken from them based on MG’s criminal history is unsupported speculation only.

Whether or not prior children were removed or for what reasons is entirely unknown. However if that occurred there are many more possibilities aside from MG’s record but it’s inappropriate to speculate on the several possible reasons.

For all we know the family is somewhere safe, being sheltered by a kindred spirit until the seek-and-find frenzy dies down. Time is on their side. JMO

I remain hopeful they are safe and well and living in a nice warm house.
There is no evidence this little family ever spent a night in a tent, only that MG had purchased one.
They have not been seen since January 9 and there is no evidence they are still even together.

Together or not, I wish them well.

 

[MistyWaters]

I remain hopeful they are safe and well and living in a nice warm house.
There is no evidence this little family ever spent a night in a tent, only that MG had purchased one.
They have not been seen since January 9 and there is no evidence they are still even together.

Together or not, I wish them well.

I do too. There are no reports of any arrest warrants being issued so it’s not as if any third party could be charged with aiding and abetting criminals, however much the media might give the impression they are that. JMO

 

[kittythehare]

I do too. There are no reports of any arrest warrants being issued so it’s not as if any third party could be charged with aiding and abetting criminals, however much the media might give the impression they are that. JMO

Also quite possible she was more easily able to secure accommodation for herself and the baby without him. That's just speculation on my part though .

 

[QB2022]

They wouldn't announce an arrest warrant, it would back them into a corner they want to avoid.

Register a birth. The birth legally has to he registered within 42 days. That deadline is imminent.

 

[kittythehare]

They wouldn't announce an arrest warrant, it would back them into a corner they want to avoid.

Register a birth. The birth legally has to he registered within 42 days. That deadline is imminent.

UK - UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon & Newborn, left a broken down car on motorway, Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023

Being almost a month out on last sightings is pretty terrible isnt it. I did see a few Facebook posts mentioning Eastbourne, and apparently someone did call it in but thats been the end of it. I think its unlikely they've gotten out of the country legally due to passports and find it a little...

www.websleuths.com

 

[JuicyLucy]

They wouldn't announce an arrest warrant, it would back them into a corner they want to avoid.

Register a birth. The birth legally has to he registered within 42 days. That deadline is imminent.

It's not a deadline that really changes much, though, imo. If LE wanted to criminalise them, they could have done that already, either on account of breached ViSOR conditions or similar, or on account of the failure to report the birth within 36 hours, which I posted about towards the end of thread #1, or possibly something else we don't know about, given the scale of the investigation to date. But as you say, an arrest warrant could change the dynamics in ways everyone wants to avoid, so I can't see the 42-day requirement being enforced with any great fanfare. JMO.

 

[rightsaidfred]

I think the authorities have been hoping all along that CM will pop up with the baby and voluntarily come forward to the police. They're not going to want to make that decision even harder by telling them they're going to be prosecuted when they do show up.

Even if they were prosecuted for not registering the birth then the maximum penalty is a £200 fine - trivial in context What is the maximum penalty for not registering a birth? - a Freedom of Information request to General Register Office

But I can't imagine such a prosecution being pursued; it will be eclipsed by much bigger matters like care proceedings or more serious criminal offences, or it will be deemed not in the public interest to prosecute them for it.

I hope the baby is warm and safe somewhere, having found support from someone with a misguided distrust of the authorities, as the thought of a baby sleeping rough is awful. They can't keep this up forever though; eventually, they will run out of money and have to resurface, or they will become complacent and someone will spot them, or they'll outstay their welcome with someone sheltering them.

 

[MistyWaters]

It's not a deadline that really changes much, though, imo. If LE wanted to criminalise them, they could have done that already, either on account of breached ViSOR conditions or similar, or on account of the failure to report the birth within 36 hours, which I posted about towards the end of thread #1, or possibly something else we don't know about, given the scale of the investigation to date. But as you say, an arrest warrant could change the dynamics in ways everyone wants to avoid, so I can't see the 42-day requirement being enforced with any great fanfare. JMO.

I agree, there’s a genuine and sincere compassionate tone to the most recent plea, unchanged since the onset. It takes a certain amount of scandalous speculation to interpret it‘s an indication of a hidden agenda, such as a secret arrest warrant. The couple would be aware of any underlying reasons they might be wanted by police, if that were the case. JMO

Missing aristocrat, rapist partner and baby ‘camping out in countryside’, say police

Police issue renewed appeal to trace Constance Marten and Mark Gordon, who disappeared one month ago

www.independent.co.uk

“In a direct plea to the couple, Det Supt Basford said: “Constance and Mark, your baby has spent the first month of its short life exposed to the elements when it should be safe and warm and, most importantly, seen by medics.

“After a month you must be running low on cash. Please pick up the phone and let us know, at the very least, that you are okay. We are ready to come to you and see that you and the baby get medical attention.”….”

 

[QB2022]

I never implied it indicated a hidden arrest warrant, just that they would not state if there is as it would be counter productive.

There is a legitimate concern for the baby and CM, that's never been denied. It doesn't mean when they appear it will be fluffy sunshine and rainbows.

Things like not registering the birth will all be on the list of things that will be deemed harmful and not acting in the best interests of a child rather than legally posing a problem.

 

[QB2022]

Also in the UK the civil and criminal courts are very very seperate. This is all very much a civil matter, it doesn't mean it's less serious.

 

[kittythehare]

Registration after 3 months but within 12 months​

22. Where an informant attends before a superintendent registrar to make a declaration under section 6(1)(b) of the Act (which relates to registration after 3 but within 12 months of birth) the superintendent registrar shall supply a form of declaration provided by the Registrar General.

Registration after 12 months​

23.—(1) Where a registrar or a superintendent registrar is informed that a birth which occurred more than 12 months previously has not been registered, he shall make a report to the Registrar General stating to the best of his knowledge and belief the particulars required to be registered concerning the birth, the source of his information and the name and address of any qualified informant available to give information for the registration.
(2) Where an informant attends, pursuant to the written authority of the Registrar General, to give information for the registration of a birth which occurred more than 12 months previously, the superintendent registrar shall—
(a)ascertain from the informant the particulars required to be registered concerning the birth, enter them in a form of declaration provided by the Registrar General, read or show the form to the informant and, after correcting any error, require the informant to sign the declaration; and
(b)attest the declaration.
(3) On registering the birth pursuant to this regulation the registrar shall enter immediately after the date of registration the words “On the authority of the Registrar General”.

Making of declaration under section 9 of the Act​

24.—(1) The officer before whom a declaration for the purposes of section 9 of the Act (which relates to giving information to a person other than the registrar) may be made shall be—
(a)in a case where not more than 3 months have elapsed since the date of the birth of the child, any registrar of births and deaths, or
(b)in any other case, any superintendent registrar,
not being the superintendent registrar or the registrar of births and deaths for the district or sub-district in which the birth occurred.
(2) A registrar or a superintendent registrar before whom such a declaration is to be made shall ascertain from the informant the particulars to be registered concerning the birth, enter them in such declaration, using for the purpose a form provided by the Registrar General, read or show the form to the informant and, after correcting any error, require the informant to sign the declaration.
(3) Any such declaration shall be attested by the officer in whose presence it was signed.
(4) If it appears to the registrar of the sub-district in which the birth occurred that the particulars contained in any such declaration, as duly sent to him, are in any material respect not proper to be registered, he shall return the declaration to the officer before whom it was attested together with a note of the matters in which it appears to need amendment, and that officer shall in the presence of the declarant amend any error by striking out any incorrect particulars and inserting the correct particulars.
(5) Any amendment so made shall be initialled by the declarant, and the declaration shall be returned to the registrar of the sub-district in which the birth occurred.
(6) Subject to the provisions of paragraphs (7) and (8), when the said registrar receives a declaration which serves the purposes of section 9 of the Act (whether a declaration made solely for the purposes of that section or a declaration made in a case to which section 6 or 7 of the Act applies) he shall, if the birth has not to his knowledge already been registered, enter the particulars of the birth in his register in the following manner:—
(a)in spaces 1 to 13 of the entry, he shall enter the particulars as appearing in the corresponding spaces of the declaration, so, however, that where any particular has been corrected in pursuance of paragraph (4) he shall enter in the register only the particulars as corrected, omitting any incorrect particular which has been struck out and the initials of the declarant;
(b)in space 14 (Signature of informant) he shall write the name of the declarant in the form in which it is signed in the declaration, and shall add the words “by declaration dated …”, inserting the date on which the declaration was made and signed.
(7) If more than 3 but less than 12 months have elapsed since the date of the birth of the child, the registrar shall make the entry in the presence of the superintendent registrar in whose district the birth occurred, and the superintendent registrar and registrar shall sign the entry, adding their official descriptions.
(8) If more than 12 months have elapsed since the date of the birth of the child, the registrar shall not make the entry until he has received the written authority of the Registrar General to register the birth; and below the date of registration in space 15 the registrar shall enter the words “On the authority of the Registrar General”, and the superintendent registrar and registrar shall sign the entry, adding their official descriptions.

Alteration or giving of name after registration​

25.—(1) An entry in pursuance of section 13 of the Act (which relates to registering or altering the name of a child) shall be made in space 17 of the entry of birth by the registrar or superintendent registrar having custody of the register in which the birth is registered.
(2) Where an entry is made in pursuance of the said section 13, the registrar or superintendent registrar, as the case may be, shall enter the name shown in the certificate given in pursuance of the said section followed by the surname recorded in space 2 of the entry and—
(a)if the entry is made on production of a certificate in form 2 that a name was given in baptism, add the words “by baptism on …” , inserting the date on which the child was baptised;
(b)if the entry is made on production of a certificate in form 3 that a name was given otherwise than in baptism, add the words “on certificate of naming dated …”, inserting the date on which the certificate was signed.


https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1968/2049/part/IV/made

 

[QB2022]

Just for a bit of British History lesson. It has been a requirement within 42 days since 1837 HISTPOP.ORG - Browse > Legislation > Registration Act, 1836

"XIX. And be it enacted, That the Father or Mother of any Child born, or the Occupier of every House or Tenement in England in which any Birth or Death shall happen, after the said First day of March, may, within Forty-two Days next after the Day of such Birth or within Five Days after the Day of such Death respectively, give Notice of such Birth or Death to the Registrar of the District; and in case any new-born Child or any dead Body shall be found exposed"

Legally it won't get them in hot water, it is more about the fact it is something they are required to do for their baby, who has a right for it to be done and they haven't yet.

 

[Earthwindfire]

Registration after 3 months but within 12 months​

22. Where an informant attends before a superintendent registrar to make a declaration under section 6(1)(b) of the Act (which relates to registration after 3 but within 12 months of birth) the superintendent registrar shall supply a form of declaration provided by the Registrar General.

Registration after 12 months​

23.—(1) Where a registrar or a superintendent registrar is informed that a birth which occurred more than 12 months previously has not been registered, he shall make a report to the Registrar General stating to the best of his knowledge and belief the particulars required to be registered concerning the birth, the source of his information and the name and address of any qualified informant available to give information for the registration.
(2) Where an informant attends, pursuant to the written authority of the Registrar General, to give information for the registration of a birth which occurred more than 12 months previously, the superintendent registrar shall—
(a)ascertain from the informant the particulars required to be registered concerning the birth, enter them in a form of declaration provided by the Registrar General, read or show the form to the informant and, after correcting any error, require the informant to sign the declaration; and
(b)attest the declaration.
(3) On registering the birth pursuant to this regulation the registrar shall enter immediately after the date of registration the words “On the authority of the Registrar General”.

Making of declaration under section 9 of the Act​

24.—(1) The officer before whom a declaration for the purposes of section 9 of the Act (which relates to giving information to a person other than the registrar) may be made shall be—
(a)in a case where not more than 3 months have elapsed since the date of the birth of the child, any registrar of births and deaths, or
(b)in any other case, any superintendent registrar,
not being the superintendent registrar or the registrar of births and deaths for the district or sub-district in which the birth occurred.
(2) A registrar or a superintendent registrar before whom such a declaration is to be made shall ascertain from the informant the particulars to be registered concerning the birth, enter them in such declaration, using for the purpose a form provided by the Registrar General, read or show the form to the informant and, after correcting any error, require the informant to sign the declaration.
(3) Any such declaration shall be attested by the officer in whose presence it was signed.
(4) If it appears to the registrar of the sub-district in which the birth occurred that the particulars contained in any such declaration, as duly sent to him, are in any material respect not proper to be registered, he shall return the declaration to the officer before whom it was attested together with a note of the matters in which it appears to need amendment, and that officer shall in the presence of the declarant amend any error by striking out any incorrect particulars and inserting the correct particulars.
(5) Any amendment so made shall be initialled by the declarant, and the declaration shall be returned to the registrar of the sub-district in which the birth occurred.
(6) Subject to the provisions of paragraphs (7) and (8), when the said registrar receives a declaration which serves the purposes of section 9 of the Act (whether a declaration made solely for the purposes of that section or a declaration made in a case to which section 6 or 7 of the Act applies) he shall, if the birth has not to his knowledge already been registered, enter the particulars of the birth in his register in the following manner:—
(a)in spaces 1 to 13 of the entry, he shall enter the particulars as appearing in the corresponding spaces of the declaration, so, however, that where any particular has been corrected in pursuance of paragraph (4) he shall enter in the register only the particulars as corrected, omitting any incorrect particular which has been struck out and the initials of the declarant;
(b)in space 14 (Signature of informant) he shall write the name of the declarant in the form in which it is signed in the declaration, and shall add the words “by declaration dated …”, inserting the date on which the declaration was made and signed.
(7) If more than 3 but less than 12 months have elapsed since the date of the birth of the child, the registrar shall make the entry in the presence of the superintendent registrar in whose district the birth occurred, and the superintendent registrar and registrar shall sign the entry, adding their official descriptions.
(8) If more than 12 months have elapsed since the date of the birth of the child, the registrar shall not make the entry until he has received the written authority of the Registrar General to register the birth; and below the date of registration in space 15 the registrar shall enter the words “On the authority of the Registrar General”, and the superintendent registrar and registrar shall sign the entry, adding their official descriptions.

Alteration or giving of name after registration​

25.—(1) An entry in pursuance of section 13 of the Act (which relates to registering or altering the name of a child) shall be made in space 17 of the entry of birth by the registrar or superintendent registrar having custody of the register in which the birth is registered.
(2) Where an entry is made in pursuance of the said section 13, the registrar or superintendent registrar, as the case may be, shall enter the name shown in the certificate given in pursuance of the said section followed by the surname recorded in space 2 of the entry and—
(a)if the entry is made on production of a certificate in form 2 that a name was given in baptism, add the words “by baptism on …” , inserting the date on which the child was baptised;
(b)if the entry is made on production of a certificate in form 3 that a name was given otherwise than in baptism, add the words “on certificate of naming dated …”, inserting the date on which the certificate was signed.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1968/2049/part/IV/made

Just for a bit of British History lesson. It has been a requirement within 42 days since 1837 HISTPOP.ORG - Browse > Legislation > Registration Act, 1836

"XIX. And be it enacted, That the Father or Mother of any Child born, or the Occupier of every House or Tenement in England in which any Birth or Death shall happen, after the said First day of March, may, within Forty-two Days next after the Day of such Birth or within Five Days after the Day of such Death respectively, give Notice of such Birth or Death to the Registrar of the District; and in case any new-born Child or any dead Body shall be found exposed"

Legally it won't get them in hot water, it is more about the fact it is something they are required to do for their baby, who has a right for it to be done and they haven't yet.

Quite. The legality is really irrelevant in a way. The 'crime' isn't what matters but it is something they are denying their child - a way in which they are not doing what is expected. Another way in which they are not acting in the best interests of the baby. Things like this will go against them.

It's all of these little things that build up a picture about parents to SS. Speaking generally (as can't speculate about this case), what could happen is an incident that results in SS becoming interested. It could be something as minor as an accidental injury that is investigated. When investigated, a past conviction might be flagged, so instead of them chatting to the parents and closing the case when they realise they are loving parents, they find a conviction and then need to investigate further. Next they find out a parent has missed a medical appointment, perhaps perfectly innocently, perhaps not, or they speak to a local toddler group they attend and find out the mother often seems stressed. All this information builds up a picture that results in involvement from SS.

 

[Cpops]

'Huge police presence on South Downs as police search for missing couple and baby’

There is a huge police presence in Newhaven tonight as police 'search' for Constance Marten and Mark Gordon.

www.theargus.co.uk

Report of a search effort this evening…