UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon & Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #2 *Arrest*

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I'm surprised they haven't used heat cameras yet but I don't know how much they would let on. I just hope everyone is safe.
 
Not clear from that link is it. Councillor perhaps mistaken, as LE denying?

I think they've left the Country.
If they are still here, they are displaying some serious resilience to stay under the radar this long.

This baby needs a safe and nurturing environment, which on the face of it parents cannot offer right now.
On the other hand, they are putting up a great fight in staying together (we assume) as a unit & will undoubtedly have bonded. Such a sad situation
 
QB2022 said:
2.1.6 Child Protection (Section 47) Enquiries section 47 assessment
They will also assess the other parent's ability to protect through capacity assessments and the wider family support network. A parent who scores highly on the ability to protect makes the whole situation less of a concern as it instills confidence that in a bad situation they will put the child first. That is also the importance of a wider support network as they are also protective factors. They will look at mental health and if things have been logged as concerns even if NFA.

It's hugely complex.

MOO is she originally kept her children and then something triggered them to no longer to be in her care.

In cases when I've seen similar, and I'm not implying this is what has happened here, there can be a parenting agreement drawn up initially and then there is an incident logged which breaks that agreement and they come down swiftly with removing children.
Click to expand...
I’m curious about the bolded statement, are parents really judged by the government on whether they are on good terms with extended family?
Many parents don’t have a “family support network” for various reasons, it doesn’t mean they have less capacity to parent. Some people don’t even have living family members or live far from family, even in other countries. Constance’s own father shunned his inheritance and was estranged from his family for years.
I have a cousin who married a Black man and her immediate family disowned her, she is still happy with him 35 years later with 2 grown children.
I know people who haven’t spoken to their family in years simply because of politics, it’s not exactly rare in western countries nowadays but has nothing to do with the ability to parent.
There are various reasons families become estranged, unless we are privy to the private family dynamics, I don’t see how we can assess those decisions as right or wrong, and even then, that’s a personal choice we as adults are free to make without interference from government.
 
everybodhi said:
I’m curious about the bolded statement, are parents really judged by the government on whether they are on good terms with extended family?
Many parents don’t have a “family support network” for various reasons, it doesn’t mean they have less capacity to parent. Some people don’t even have living family members or live far from family, even in other countries. Constance’s own father shunned his inheritance and was estranged from his family for years.
I have a cousin who married a Black man and her immediate family disowned her, she is still happy with him 35 years later with 2 grown children.
I know people who haven’t spoken to their family in years simply because of politics, it’s not exactly rare in western countries nowadays but has nothing to do with the ability to parent.
There are various reasons families become estranged, unless we are privy to the private family dynamics, I don’t see how we can assess those decisions as right or wrong, and even then, that’s a personal choice we as adults are free to make without interference from government.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's judgement as such. A hypothetical example but if a parent has very recently had a serious mental health episode, having a support network who can both check on them, provide support and also monitor that they're managing to provide the child with it's fundamental needs is beneficial. The worst case is no one sees they're really struggling to the detriment of the child.

If there is no red flags I don't think they are all that concerned.

JMO.
 
infinit said:
I don't think it's judgement as such. A hypothetical example but if a parent has very recently had a serious mental health episode, having a support network who can both check on them, provide support and also monitor that they're managing to provide the child with it's fundamental needs is beneficial. The worst case is no one sees they're really struggling to the detriment of the child. If there is no red flags I don't think they are all that concerned. JMO.
Click to expand...
We don’t have any reports of a mental health episode in this case, nor addiction or domestic violence.
But yes, with the lack of midwives and mothers in labor being repeatedly turned away from hospitals as has been reported by media, along with inadequate funding for mental health care, food, and housing, social services certainly have their hands full, don’t they?
Jmo

Almost EIGHT times more homeless in Manchester than elsewhere in the North West

In the North West, a total of 12,500 people - one in every 587 - are currently homeless, including more than 5,500 children, the report claims.
Of these, more than 220 people are sleeping rough while 12,200 people - many of whom are families - are living in temporary accommodation.

Across England, more than 274,000 people are homeless and Shelter says a tough winter and a living cost crisis as fuel bills soar could see even more people lose their homes..frontline workers have been inundated with calls to its emergency helpline from people facing homelessness this winter.

However, the figures are likely to be an underestimate as some types of homelessness such as sofa surfing go undocumented.

"A shoddy hostel room or a freezing cold doorway is no place to wake up on Christmas morning, but sadly so many people will.”
 
This is an International human rights site with very useful information

www.birthrights.org.uk

Social Services and Maternity Care - Birthrights

What do social services do? Social services teams are part of your local council. Their job includes helping people who are in need of additional support or are at risk of harm. This can include helping babies and children, and also helping adults with certain care needs. The part of social...
www.birthrights.org.uk www.birthrights.org.uk
 
everybodhi said:
We don’t have any reports of a mental health episode in this case, nor addiction or domestic violence.
But yes, with the lack of midwives and mothers in labor being repeatedly turned away from hospitals as has been reported by media, along with inadequate funding for mental health care, food, and housing, social services certainly have their hands full, don’t they?
Jmo

Almost EIGHT times more homeless in Manchester than elsewhere in the North West

In the North West, a total of 12,500 people - one in every 587 - are currently homeless, including more than 5,500 children, the report claims.
Of these, more than 220 people are sleeping rough while 12,200 people - many of whom are families - are living in temporary accommodation.

Across England, more than 274,000 people are homeless and Shelter says a tough winter and a living cost crisis as fuel bills soar could see even more people lose their homes..frontline workers have been inundated with calls to its emergency helpline from people facing homelessness this winter.

However, the figures are likely to be an underestimate as some types of homelessness such as sofa surfing go undocumented.

"A shoddy hostel room or a freezing cold doorway is no place to wake up on Christmas morning, but sadly so many people will.”
Click to expand...

It's a bit of a strawman argument no? I clearly stated it was hypothetical (I have no clue what or what not is going on with these two - Just that there appears to be serious concern.) I've also not said anything about the current state of the NHS (which I think is shocking) nor the current situation with homelessness (it's *advertiser censored*.)

EDIT: I think I've misinterpreted the meaning of your post. I agree, it's certainly not a job I'd want to do! The entire system seems to be falling apart at the moment
 
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kittythehare said:
This is an International human rights site with very useful information

www.birthrights.org.uk

Social Services and Maternity Care - Birthrights

What do social services do? Social services teams are part of your local council. Their job includes helping people who are in need of additional support or are at risk of harm. This can include helping babies and children, and also helping adults with certain care needs. The part of social...
www.birthrights.org.uk www.birthrights.org.uk
Click to expand...
I wonder what it is that's caused such a strong push to the extent they've put out a reward. I imagine it's someone fairly senior in that police force that has to sign off on the £10k for information. I'd be curious as to how high up it has to go but Google isn't giving me anything.
 
infinit said:
I wonder what it is that's caused such a strong push to the extent they've put out a reward. I imagine it's someone fairly senior in that police force that has to sign off on the £10k for information. I'd be curious as to how high up it has to go but Google isn't giving me anything.
Click to expand...
Well I don't know.
But I'd be very surprised if the social services are putting it up.
Literally this chase is by the police.
We do not know why.
They have rights as parents.
Finding a placenta in a vehicle is not evidence that a birth took place, many couples keep their placenta, I think it's creepy but not a crime.
She has a right to have any style birth she chooses, I doubt she chose a car birth but maybe that is what happened.
We don't know she opted out of antenatal care, she may have been using an alternative medical practitioner.

The facts of this case is that there are no facts.
No sightings since Jan 9.
A tent purchased.
Abandoning a vehicle in a motorway would probably not be charged in court under the circumstances. Or as a misdemeanor and fined.

The long taxi rides were paid for, no crime there. No apparent purpose in visiting the places they did. But there must have been a purpose. I wonder whether they were searching for someone? I can't imagine who or why..

Thing is that she could have obtained legal aid had a court order been in place to take the child at birth but as no evidence of any such order exists I wonder whether we're not all barking up the wrong tree entirely?
If nobody knew she was pregnant, no such order existed.

I do of course wonder whether this could have been handled more discreetly and professionally by another police department in another location.
 
infinit said:
I wonder what it is that's caused such a strong push to the extent they've put out a reward. I imagine it's someone fairly senior in that police force that has to sign off on the £10k for information. I'd be curious as to how high up it has to go but Google isn't giving me anything.
Click to expand...
The only guidelines I can find all specify it must be a serious crime, as this example from the Sussex department

https://www.sussex.police.uk/cy-GB/...erious-crime-policy-surrey-and-sussex-327.pdf

Procedure
1. Use of a Reward
1.1 The use of a reward to progress an investigation can only be made if the offence meets one of the following serious crime criteria:
• That the offence is one in which a person who has attained the age of twenty-one and has no previous convictions could reasonably be expected to be sentenced to imprisonment for a term of three years or more or
• That the conduct of the offence involves the use of serious violence, results in substantial financial gain or is conducted by a large number of persons in pursuit of a common purpose or
• That in considering the particulars of the offence, the Senior Investigating Officer (SIO) and Head of Major Crime or Head of Crime for either Force agree that it must be treated as if it were so specified, in that it is a serious enough offence to merit a reward as a failure to progress the investigation could damage the confidence of the general public in the Forces.

9. Enhanced Rewards
9.1 Crimestoppers Trust may offer 'Enhanced Rewards' of up to £10,000 where information leads to arrest, charge and conviction. This offer is, however, only available for a few selected crimes where strict criteria apply as the Trust has a national responsibility with extremely tight funds.

9.2 The SIO must only consider an application for a Crimestoppers Enhanced Reward where all other reasonable lines of enquiry have been exhausted and the only further viable avenue to the investigation is the cultivation of anonymous information.

9.3 Application for Crimestoppers Enhanced Rewards must be authorised by the SIO and submitted for consideration to the Head of Major Crime and/or the Head of Crime for either Force.

10.1 Summary:
• Must be for a serious crime
• Must have the SIO’s approval and be authorised by Head of Major Crime and/or Lead for Specialist Crime Command (SCC)
• Must be a last resort, e.g., the investigation is stalled
• CPS must be notified promptly
• Legal Services must be consulted in the case of third party reward offers
• The size of the reward must be specified
• A risk assessment must be in place for the payment plan
Team: Specialist Crime Command Major Crime Team

BBM
 
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kittythehare said:
Well I don't know.
But I'd be very surprised if the social services are putting it up.
Literally this chase is by the police.
We do not know why.
They have rights as parents.
Finding a placenta in a vehicle is not evidence that a birth took place, many couples keep their placenta, I think it's creepy but not a crime.
She has a right to have any style birth she chooses, I doubt she chose a car birth but maybe that is what happened.
We don't know she opted out of antenatal care, she may have been using an alternative medical practitioner.

The facts of this case is that there are no facts.
No sightings since Jan 9.
A tent purchased.
Abandoning a vehicle in a motorway would probably not be charged in court under the circumstances. Or as a misdemeanor and fined.

The long taxi rides were paid for, no crime there. No apparent purpose in visiting the places they did. But there must have been a purpose. I wonder whether they were searching for someone? I can't imagine who or why..

Thing is that she could have obtained legal aid had a court order been in place to take the child at birth but as no evidence of any such order exists I wonder whether we're not all barking up the wrong tree entirely?
If nobody knew she was pregnant, no such order existed.

I do of course wonder whether this could have been handled more discreetly and professionally by another police department in another location.
Click to expand...
When I very 1st saw the appeal I assumed they'd found the car, seen no occupants, checked the CCTV and were just generally concerned for their welfare.

As you say there is no crime in a home birth etc and I also get the feeling the car and CCTV was the 1st time anyone knew about a baby.

I can't make sense of the taxi journeys. The M61 doesn't really go to Liverpool, it's almost like the car burn out has completely changed their plans?

I am getting doubtful they're still in the country tbh.
 
infinit said:
When I very 1st saw the appeal I assumed they'd found the car, seen no occupants, checked the CCTV and were just generally concerned for their welfare.

As you say there is no crime in a home birth etc and I also get the feeling the car and CCTV was the 1st time anyone knew about a baby.

I can't make sense of the taxi journeys. The M61 doesn't really go to Liverpool, it's almost like the car burn out has completely changed their plans?

I am getting doubtful they're still in the country tbh.
Click to expand...
They could be in a friend’s guest bedroom anywhere, there’s no crime in providing them accommodations, it’s not like they would be hiding known felons.
 
everybodhi said:
The only guidelines I can find all specify it must be a serious crime, as this example from the Sussex department

https://www.sussex.police.uk/cy-GB/...erious-crime-policy-surrey-and-sussex-327.pdf

Procedure
1. Use of a Reward
1.1 The use of a reward to progress an investigation can only be made if the offence meets one of the following serious crime criteria:
• That the offence is one in which a person who has attained the age of twenty-one and has no previous convictions could reasonably be expected to be sentenced to imprisonment for a term of three years or more or
• That the conduct of the offence involves the use of serious violence, results in substantial financial gain or is conducted by a large number of persons in pursuit of a common purpose or
• That in considering the particulars of the offence, the Senior Investigating Officer (SIO) and Head of Major Crime or Head of Crime for either Force agree that it must be treated as if it were so specified, in that it is a serious enough offence to merit a reward as a failure to progress the investigation could damage the confidence of the general public in the Forces.

9. Enhanced Rewards
9.1 Crimestoppers Trust may offer 'Enhanced Rewards' of up to £10,000 where information leads to arrest, charge and conviction. This offer is, however, only available for a few selected crimes where strict criteria apply as the Trust has a national responsibility with extremely tight funds.

9.2 The SIO must only consider an application for a Crimestoppers Enhanced Reward where all other reasonable lines of enquiry have been exhausted and the only further viable avenue to the investigation is the cultivation of anonymous information.

9.3 Application for Crimestoppers Enhanced Rewards must be authorised by the SIO and submitted for consideration to the Head of Major Crime and/or the Head of Crime for either Force.

10.1 Summary:
• Must be for a serious crime
• Must have the SIO’s approval and be authorised by Head of Major Crime and/or Lead for Specialist Crime Command (SCC)
• Must be a last resort, e.g., the investigation is stalled
• CPS must be notified promptly
• Legal Services must be consulted in the case of third party reward offers
• The size of the reward must be specified
• A risk assessment must be in place for the payment plan
Team: Specialist Crime Command Major Crime Team

BBM
Click to expand...
Great find. Truly bizarre. So they must be concerned about a criminal offence if I'm reading correctly, and a fairly serious one at that? There is surely more that they're not making public here. Or they've gone so far overboard.

Jmo
 
everybodhi said:
I’m curious about the bolded statement, are parents really judged by the government on whether they are on good terms with extended family?
Many parents don’t have a “family support network” for various reasons, it doesn’t mean they have less capacity to parent. Some people don’t even have living family members or live far from family, even in other countries. Constance’s own father shunned his inheritance and was estranged from his family for years.
I have a cousin who married a Black man and her immediate family disowned her, she is still happy with him 35 years later with 2 grown children.
I know people who haven’t spoken to their family in years simply because of politics, it’s not exactly rare in western countries nowadays but has nothing to do with the ability to parent.
There are various reasons families become estranged, unless we are privy to the private family dynamics, I don’t see how we can assess those decisions as right or wrong, and even then, that’s a personal choice we as adults are free to make without interference from government.
Click to expand...
Ordinarily, no. If there are concerns about the children to the point a child protection assessment is being carried out then the wider support network is quite important.
 
everybodhi said:
The only guidelines I can find all specify it must be a serious crime, as this example from the Sussex department

https://www.sussex.police.uk/cy-GB/...erious-crime-policy-surrey-and-sussex-327.pdf

Procedure
1. Use of a Reward
1.1 The use of a reward to progress an investigation can only be made if the offence meets one of the following serious crime criteria:
• That the offence is one in which a person who has attained the age of twenty-one and has no previous convictions could reasonably be expected to be sentenced to imprisonment for a term of three years or more or
• That the conduct of the offence involves the use of serious violence, results in substantial financial gain or is conducted by a large number of persons in pursuit of a common purpose or
• That in considering the particulars of the offence, the Senior Investigating Officer (SIO) and Head of Major Crime or Head of Crime for either Force agree that it must be treated as if it were so specified, in that it is a serious enough offence to merit a reward as a failure to progress the investigation could damage the confidence of the general public in the Forces.

9. Enhanced Rewards
9.1 Crimestoppers Trust may offer 'Enhanced Rewards' of up to £10,000 where information leads to arrest, charge and conviction. This offer is, however, only available for a few selected crimes where strict criteria apply as the Trust has a national responsibility with extremely tight funds.

9.2 The SIO must only consider an application for a Crimestoppers Enhanced Reward where all other reasonable lines of enquiry have been exhausted and the only further viable avenue to the investigation is the cultivation of anonymous information.

9.3 Application for Crimestoppers Enhanced Rewards must be authorised by the SIO and submitted for consideration to the Head of Major Crime and/or the Head of Crime for either Force.

10.1 Summary:
• Must be for a serious crime
• Must have the SIO’s approval and be authorised by Head of Major Crime and/or Lead for Specialist Crime Command (SCC)
• Must be a last resort, e.g., the investigation is stalled
• CPS must be notified promptly
• Legal Services must be consulted in the case of third party reward offers
• The size of the reward must be specified
• A risk assessment must be in place for the payment plan
Team: Specialist Crime Command Major Crime Team

BBM
Click to expand...
Thanks for looking that up.
I had been wondering whether perhaps they had left a bloodbath in their wake somewhere but I'm pretty sure we would have heard about it had that been the case.

Is there provision for family to put up the money I wonder?
 
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