UK UK - Corrie McKeague, 23, Bury St Edmunds, 24 September 2016 #22

[MelmothTheLost]

" .... and there were derelict buildings which had not been searched"

Derelict buildings in the centre of BSE? I know the nearby shopping centre was [more or less] closed but that's not the same as "derelict". What buildings is she referring to?

 

[Bedouin]

Derelict buildings in the centre of BSE? I know the nearby shopping centre was [more or less] closed but that's not the same as "derelict". What buildings is she referring to?

Im sure I recall reading they couldn't trace the owners of some of the properties in the nearby area, so maybe she meant abandoned or unused more than "derelict" falling down.

 

[Miss_French]

Derelict buildings in the centre of BSE? I know the nearby shopping centre was [more or less] closed but that's not the same as "derelict". What buildings is she referring to?

I'm local and N totally confused me with that statement and what she said on the find corrie website about searches having been done, which I linked. There is an empty property (painted black) next to Greggs, but it's door is in that side pedestrian way; hence C would have had to come back out of the HS and round the corner to get to that. There is also the former Mill Fabrics shop, which was being renovated and opened as Furniture Market; this is located on a corner at the top of Short Brackland and N posted at length about the owner being co-operative and allowing a search. And, as mentioned, the shopping centre. There are metal stairways up the back of the buildings in the HS, but the start of the stairs are behind gates/walls; they lead on to a couple of flat areas (a landing and a terrace) but not a 'roof' and not difficult to search. I can't think of any flat roof in that area, apart from maybe part of the shopping centre, but I really don't know where to access that.

If C has been climbing up the back of the HS, it is some serious climbing. Entirely possible for someone who is reasonably fit, but when youre probably going to be taking run-ups to get height and leverage or moving bins to climb on for access, it's more of a challenge for someone who's been drinking and was wandering around after maybe banging their head.

 

[Miss_French]

I wonder where all the rubbish goes from the RAF/USAF bases? Would it be classed as confidential and disposed of using military vehicles or just picked up by Biffa or the council like civilian waste?

There's different methods, depending on the type of waste and, as with any business, it's contracted out as rubbish bags go into wheelie bins/skips. There's the usual separation; general waste, food (from messes), recycling, and then classified. Any sensitive information on paper or disk is disposed of shredded or broken up and burnt.

 

[Miss_French]

It is my "simple" theory that he was at some point found in the bin lorry or when emptied/loaded at Red Lodge or Milton. This does assume he was accidentally and unwittingly tipped into the back of the bin lorry but no forensic evidence in the back doesn't back it up. The weight stuff is also really odd and needs a lot more disclosure to make proper sense of but doubt we'll get it. Originally it was said it was a cardboard recycling bin with a weight of 15kg later reduced to 11kg and backed up by (according to N) historic data. Now I believe it is said it was in fact a general waste bin and the weight of contents was 115kg or some such figure. Problem is there is no context given for this weight. If we could see/know the historic weight of this bin over previous weeks it should stand out has being +/- 85kg overweight....

IIRC the police said they checked Biffa records going back 6 months and the usual weight for the collection was 10-15kg. Hence it was accepted when that kind of figure was given initially for the bin the night C disappeared. Not seen a specific reason as to why SP went back to double check, which led them to find the extra weight.

 

[Amonet]

There was a very interesting revelation at about 5.12 mins in where N says that the phone went 'part way of the journey of the bin lorry".

ETA: or did she mean part way of the drivers entire journey including all the places he went that night? It sounded to me that it was only part of the journey to BM.

From what I recall, at the beginning it was said that the phone pings ended up in the BM/Mildenhall area, so I presume that's what N meant, that the phone pings stopped there instead of continuing with the bin lorry route all the way to Red Lodge?

I figured that if the phone was in the bin lorry that maybe the crusher ran at the pick up at Sainsbury's in Mildenhall and that's when the phone pings stopped but that the phone was stuck on the BM tower in an inactive state as it hadn't sent out a proper 'goodbye' signal to the tower? But there were a number of searches focused around the Fiveways roundabout at BM where the tower is located.

 

[Taskforce88]

From what I recall, at the beginning it was said that the phone pings ended up in the BM/Mildenhall area, so I presume that's what N meant, that the phone pings stopped there instead of continuing with the bin lorry route all the way to Red Lodge?

I figured that if the phone was in the bin lorry that maybe the crusher ran at the pick up at Sainsbury's in Mildenhall and that's when the phone pings stopped but that the phone was stuck on the BM tower in an inactive state as it hadn't sent out a proper 'goodbye' signal to the tower? But there were a number of searches focused around the Fiveways roundabout at BM where the tower is located.

I wonder what the police line of inquiry would have been if we remove the phone from the equation?

 

[Bedouin]

I wonder what the police line of inquiry would have been if we remove the phone from the equation?

Good point.
If he isn’t seen using or even checking his phone, and they know that he wasn’t using his phone at a time that they know it was active (when the picture message was sent). It seems illogical to go with the assumption that it was with him. In the early days the family said the reason he didn’t have a more modern phone was that he kept loosing/ breaking them.

 

[Taskforce88]

Good point.
If he isn’t seen using or even checking his phone, and they know that he wasn’t using his phone at a time that they know it was active (when the picture message was sent). It seems illogical to go with the assumption that it was with him. In the early days the family said the reason he didn’t have a more modern phone was that he kept loosing/ breaking them.

Yup, so its possible he lost it or broke it and binned it. The fixation on the phone (and the bin weight issue) led to a dead end: the landfill, despite the police saying with certainty that he would be found there.

 

[jessie]

That's interesting as from what I can see the only premises it could connect to is - the Snug bar.

Dragging this back up, but it has taken me a while to scrawl back through old threads.

IIRC the time C disappeared was the opening night of The Snug Bar in St John's Street. In SB there is a building with an old, carelessly secured door which a local WSer checked and told us this was connected to The Snug somehow.

We discussed it at the time, but could it be possible C was drawn to the noise etc of this opening night (I can't find what time it closed, but late/early am I'd expect).

Again going back to Thread #7 some maps were posted with the suggestion it may be possible to go from the Horseshoe to here in SB avoiding CCTV. Flat roofs seem to abound there, could C have crossed to St John's street that way?

All supposition I know, but worth considering as nothing is making sense after a year?
This is a link to Thread # 7 - posts about this area in SB and some interesting maps posted if anyone interested.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-23-Bury-St-Edmunds-24-September-2016-7/page2.

 

[Whirring]

I've followed this from the start and since the inconclusive landfill search, I have re-read and re-watched a huge amount of info. I have read and re-read the rules, but if I speak out of turn I apologise. It's a bit lengthy too.

I say inconclusive with genuine reluctance, but I find it very difficult to have faith in the handling of this from the word go by SP. The errors made relate to things that aren't hugely complex and if they got several things very wrong, how robust is the rest of the investigation?

It seems to me that whilst everyone is focused on the horseshoe, we don't actually know where he went missing from. Various forensic police and Sulsar searches of the immediate vicinity of the horseshoe including inside buildings and investigations re: the tunnels below BSE appear to have been fruitless) leaving us with the assumption that Corrie is not there.

We know Corrie could have slipped into Short Brackland Street whilst a CCTV camera was on a rotation. This would be done either purposely or it was a total coincidence that Corrie decided to move when no-one was around to see him (no-one who went through the horseshoe saw him) and at the same time the camera rotated. Considering Nicola says his entire night was caught on CCTV, this 'coincidence' is extraordinary but more feasible than vanishing into thin air.

Corrie can't go far on Short Brackland as there are CCTV cameras about halfway down which capture every angle. He could have climbed onto a lowish roof and then accessed flats or he could have climbed into the Council bins (which I think are actually residential bins). SP apparently didn't realise that there were bins there until they'd been emptied. The contents are incinerated and I believe some bones from some of the bin contents were checked to see if human but weren't. Others may or probably have gone to landfill.

I'm assuming SP checked vehicle's in Short Brackland, so it seems that it's unlikely Corrie got a lift from there.

Whether all the buildings and homes in this area have been checked is I believe unknown. But if Corrie had decided to climb onto the roof tops and been injured and died or killed, police drones and to be blunt, the smell of a decomposing body would have alerted people. Could he have even managed to get to an apparently derelict building in his state? Again it depends on how big and isolated the derelict buildings are, as to whether a decomposing body would or would not be noticed. Whether he came to harm either intentionally or accidentally, isn't it more likely that person/s unknown moved him as the disposal of a whole body in a property for this length of time would be risky. So, was he dissected and removed bit by bit? It's possible, but WHY?

The thing that has confused me the most from the off, is that Friday/Saturday night drunk altercations result in the injured being left where they fell. Why would anyone who possibly harmed Corrie feel the need to heave him into a bin, whether knowing or having no idea when they're collected? He's quite heavy, how many people would need to lift him into a bin? These people would be on CCTV too.

I keep coming back to the possibility of him having sustained a head injury in Hughes shop doorway. His behaviour in and around Hughes' doorway is worrying. This may have led Corrie to make decisions he wouldn't usually make. If he's a sober risk taker, what risks would he take when drunk and with a possible head injury?

I think he may have emptied his bowels in the horseshoe. He removed his phone from his pocket as he crouched for comfort. He was feeling cold (body language indicates this) and thought he'd climb into a bin. Maybe he got in and he didn't like it, maybe he struggled to get in. Either way he lost his grip on his phone, but didn't realise. He got out and wandered off in search of somewhere else to lie down for a bit. He found the bins in Short Brackland and maybe they were easier to get in or maybe by now Corrie just had an overwhelming need to sleep.

The main issue with this is that the bins are apparently residential council bins and it's extremely unlikely they are collected on a Saturday. If Corrie was sleeping, he'd wake up, but if unconscious, he'd wake up but if more waste (such as a bin bag or two) was put in he could suffocate. Corrie spent two hours sleeping without moving in Hughes' doorway, he could do the same here. There's also the possibility he choked on his own vomit.

I don't know if refuse workers have to push these bins anywhere, in which case this bin would be extremely heavy. Maybe they'd open the lid to peer in but if Corrie's under waste they'd see nothing. It would be easy enough to miss him fall as the bin emptied and the load would be crushed as they continued to their next pick up.

As the police searched the landfill it's clear they think it's possible that he slipped through the net so to speak. Poor Corrie could still be in a landfill. It breaks my heart.

 

[Miss_French]

Dragging this back up, but it has taken me a while to scrawl back through old threads.

IIRC the time C disappeared was the opening night of The Snug Bar in St John's Street. In SB there is a building with an old, carelessly secured door which a local WSer checked and told us this was connected to The Snug somehow.

We discussed it at the time, but could it be possible C was drawn to the noise etc of this opening night (I can't find what time it closed, but late/early am I'd expect).

Again going back to Thread #7 some maps were posted with the suggestion it may be possible to go from the Horseshoe to here in SB avoiding CCTV. Flat roofs seem to abound there, could C have crossed to St John's street that way?

All supposition I know, but worth considering as nothing is making sense after a year?
This is a link to Thread # 7 - posts about this area in SB and some interesting maps posted if anyone interested.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-23-Bury-St-Edmunds-24-September-2016-7/page2.

If this is the door in the cream-painted building, it's an extension so the door may not lead directly to the bar in The Snug; could be kitchen or storage. Also, that door is so close to residential properties I doubt music would be playing so loud it could be heard in the HS, which is relatively much further away. Also, the frontage of the buildings like The Snug is much higher on St John's St than Short Brackland, so C would have to be climbing up another 1 or 2 floors, over pointed rooftops, and then have to find a way down from 2 or 3 floors up where there is nothing to hold on to except drainpipes.

 

[jessie]

If this is the door in the cream-painted building, it's an extension so the door may not lead directly to the bar in The Snug; could be kitchen or storage. Also, that door is so close to residential properties I doubt music would be playing so loud it could be heard in the HS, which is relatively much further away. Also, the frontage of the buildings like The Snug is much higher on St John's St than Short Brackland, so C would have to be climbing up another 1 or 2 floors, over pointed rooftops, and then have to find a way down from 2 or 3 floors up where there is nothing to hold on to except drainpipes.

Appreciate your response. Great to have locals here to give clear descriptions of the area.
I was going back to the beginning to attempt an explanation on C's disappearance, but now yet another of my hopeful theories put to rest. Seems not possible he ended up in The Snug somehow without being seen .

 

[Cherwell]

Which buildings in St John's Street (if any) have rear access to the loading/bin areas in Short Brackland?

 

[FlashyHydra]

There's also the possibility he choked on his own vomit.

That's a good point and due the amount he had just ate it's also highly likely.

 

[Shiressleuth]

How very odd. If true how could that be allowed? Surely the HS must have been thoroughly searched, possibly more than once?

IMO wouldn't they need search warrants to forensically search inside all those the properties? I only think the public areas outside and the rooftops by helicopter were sesrched. I don't remember any photos or reports of cops crawling around rooftops.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Just remembered a photo I saw of a guy in Snug taken on the same night wearing the same clothes as Corrie, I wondered at the time if there had been a case of mistaken identity or something. Trying to find the photo, does anyone else remember it?

 

[Shiressleuth]

Which buildings in St John's Street (if any) have rear access to the loading/bin areas in Short Brackland?

Google maps give you some idea. I noticed there is a new bar at 3 Short Brackland called the Stillery. Does anyone know what that building was before? Also, I notice and remember it being mentioned before that it is possible to walk at the rear of CSC from SB across to Well Street so IF the CSC cam was N/W or written over after 72 hours then there would be no record as C was not missed until late Monday. This in itself I can never understand after 4 phone calls on Friday with his brother then nothing for 3 days and no one noticed? No SM activity and noone noticed.? His car parked in a disabled bay and noone noticed? That delay did not help at the beginning imo.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Just remembered a photo I saw of a guy in Snug taken on the same night wearing the same clothes as Corrie, I wondered at the time if there had been a case of mistaken identity or something. Trying to find the photo, does anyone else remember it?

I do remember - I think it was on their website - pics from the opening night?
Their opening night pics are still all on their Facebook. I looked through but couldn't see the pic in question.

 

[bluebird69]

yes i remember it too pretty sure i took a screenshot at the time.so will try to find it

Just remembered a photo I saw of a guy in Snug taken on the same night wearing the same clothes as Corrie, I wondered at the time if there had been a case of mistaken identity or something. Trying to find the photo, does anyone else remember it?