GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

[jog]

These two make me sick.

Me too! I was looking at the photo of Ellie in the check shirt with BB I think this must have been taken in November 12 when she came back Ellie looked healthy and happy . Then you see the one of them with Christmas decorations in the background and she doesn't look as happy. You an tell it is after the one with he check shirt as they are growing her fringe out. Then fast forward to the Ellie video which is in October in my view. Black eye. Bruised forehead dark circles under the other eye and what appears lank hair a total contrast in just 11 months. Appalling!

The social services , in my view they will be held responsible as well. Whatever the circumstances they would have been expected to continue ft he visits for a while longer. Interesting isn't it that the social services visits stop in March and then straight away Ellie's attendance from April onwards becomes really poor. That unfortunately leads me to a very unpleasant question, namely if BB has done this due to not being able to control his temper, why could he control his temper from Nov to march whilst social services were involved but as soon as they dip out he can't? It would imply to me that some of the violence was just deliberate rather than rush of blood to the head unless of course prior to march he just solely used JG as his punchbag when he lost his temper

 

[jog]

I think basically... They've shot themselves in the foot..
" perverting the course of Justice"
BB said he had called a mate n was talking about bank accounts. Umm odd convo when yr daughter's led dead upstairs. But cud he be the 'godparent' escape tool?
Either way. He's gotta get himself from Cornwall to London. When I'm sure that day as I live in the West Country. The fallen trees had clogged the railway lines. So it would of been a longer journey time.
See...... the more lies you tell. The better be yr memory. Cuz once you slip up. Yr story is trashed..


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I have to say I thought that the Cornwall excuse was only given because firstly she was late for work and secondly if I am correct there was evidence given that she had been off with Ellie on the 25th October so it was her reason to work for not being there. I maybe wrong but I am not sure they were thinking that far ahead but then the more you delve into you realise how devious they are so who knows !

 

[Gigi-G]

I have to say I thought that the Cornwall excuse was only given because firstly she was late for work and secondly if I am correct there was evidence given that she had been off with Ellie on the 25th October so it was her reason to work for not being there. I maybe wrong but I am not sure they were thinking that far ahead but then the more you delve into you realise how devious they are so who knows !

Well when she blatantly said that BB Was in Cornwall. Yet he states he was at home that morning as he'd not had a good night. Gave the girls their jam sandwiches crisps n cake and went back downstairs and slept some more.
If they HAD been in Cornwall and BB was travelling back later alone or with the girls fine. But he states he took his nytol as per. But still tired next day. Ish lol.

Dang these two should be called MR N MRS SPIDER.

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[Supernovae]

Oh my word! Yes!
Well spotted Squish... BB was supposedly visiting family in Cornwall?
Need to find that bit of statement/testimony.
Now it's gotta take a good 3 hours to travel by car from Cornwall to London.
But why say that in the first instance.
To give him an alibi that put him out of the scene of Ellie's death?

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It's 3:47-3:57 hours from Plymouth to Sutton by car, which is as close as you can get within Cornwall.

 

[Gigi-G]

It's 3:47-3:57 hours from Plymouth to Sutton by car, which is as close as you can get within Cornwall.

Yeah it's about the same for me I'm up in Gloucestershire.

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[cottonweaver]

It's 3:47-3:57 hours from Plymouth to Sutton by car, which is as close as you can get within Cornwall.

Super , as you're online - do you know at all if JG got any bail conditions? As you were one of the earliest posters here I thought you might know.

Also, from your past experience of cases here at WS do you know how SServices monitor if they are being eg. sued for harassment? ( Do you think it might be passed to an independent agency or another borough.) It seems this is quite a common action against them but I would have thought they must have another system in place if the relationship breaks down irrevocably, beyond just removing the kids?

I posted a few queries a page or so ago.

 

[Gigi-G]

Sorry had a quick diversion had to watch Corrie.

Whoever chose to recommend 'spring cleaning' as a lovely task to wash out the winters gloom.... needs to shhhhh

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[jog]

Super , as you're online - do you know at all if JG got any bail conditions? As you were one of the earliest posters here I thought you might know.

Also, from your past experience of cases here at WS do you know how SServices monitor if they are being eg. sued for harassment? ( Do you think it might be passed to an independent agency or another borough.) It seems this is quite a common action against them but I would have thought they must have another system in place if the relationship breaks down irrevocably, beyond just removing the kids?

I posted a few queries a page or so ago.

In his evidence and in the interviews BB said they had independent social workers who assisted aim them getting the girls back. I have some knowledge of childcare issues and due to the circumstances they probably have them new social workers who may have not been up to speed with the history or may have Brent taken on by then as we all know they are masters of deceit I still don't get why they weren't on red alert due to his previous convictions though . Whatever the outcome there will be a major review of them which unfortunately is too late for Ellie. The school were starting to worry it seems butin the normal course of events usually wait a whole school year before proceedings are taken re lack of school attendance and would probably have given a bit of latitude due to the circumstances and also as we have heard this was not a school that was used to this situation Again though there have probably been some failings there What I don't understand is that in January everybody seemed to be so on the ball ie Ellie not attending the second day of school immediately reported to social services but after March it all slipped away. I would imagine social services told the school they were happy so the school accepted this. Another thing I am really surprised about is that Ellie's Grandparents or her old school weren't
called to give evidence . Surely they could have provided evidence of her attendance then, lack of injuries and no history of continually falling over as has been suggested by BB. Also maybe they could have provided details of their contact with ELlie and if she had told them anything . It would have probably helped the jury to see the contrast between pre Nov 2012 and post Nov 2012. I think it also interested that the younger sibling only attended nursery on 3 occasions I believe from sept until Ellie died. If he hated being at home with the children so much why not take them both to school. Some reasons given for Ellie's lack of attendance is respiratory tract. Would not affect the younger o ne going. We're they worried that the younger would also start to spill the beans?

Re the blood. Note Ellie had a blood stained bandage on in the video which in my view was a week or so before she died so traces of that could have been around and JG was also seen to go into work a week before with a great big bump on her head so could have also had a nose bleed or something when injured The expert evidenceonly said recent it did not determine it was that day but o might be wrong. The blood from JG down the hallway and in Ellie's room and on the kitchen tiles. And then washing machine implies to me she took off her shirt upstairs maybe tried to wash it in the sink upstairs and it has dropped a path back down the hall maybe she walked back into Ellie's room and then To the kitchen. Maybe another wash in the sink and the. The washing machine. But I still don't get why so much blood from JG. Something doesn't fit as the suggestion is it was the shirt she wore to work that she put in the wash but there is no suggestion it was Ellie's blood on it but only Jgs and jgs on the washing machine door so where did it come from and if it was not Ellie's blood on her shirt why wash it ?

I have heard that a carpet sample from Ellie's bedroom was given to the expert BB called on Friday so without being too graphic that would imply a pool of blood there but don't know if anyone has heard evidence re this . Maybe the blood on her pillow is a red herring and has been there from a previous assault. BB knew it was there and just tried to get rid anyway. There was clearly so much going on in that house that there would be incriminating evidence everywhere.

 

[Supernovae]

Cases on BAILII where Dr Van Ee has testified:

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/lucy_...&mask_path=/&query=("van) AND (ee")&sort=rank

 

[Gigi-G]

In his evidence and in the interviews BB said they had independent social workers who assisted aim them getting the girls back. I have some knowledge of childcare issues and due to the circumstances they probably have them new social workers who may have not been up to speed with the history or may have Brent taken on by then as we all know they are masters of deceit I still don't get why they weren't on red alert due to his previous convictions though . Whatever the outcome there will be a major review of them which unfortunately is too late for Ellie. The school were starting to worry it seems butin the normal course of events usually wait a whole school year before proceedings are taken re lack of school attendance and would probably have given a bit of latitude due to the circumstances and also as we have heard this was not a school that was used to this situation Again though there have probably been some failings there What I don't understand is that in January everybody seemed to be so on the ball ie Ellie not attending the second day of school immediately reported to social services but after March it all slipped away. I would imagine social services told the school they were happy so the school accepted this. Another thing I am really surprised about is that Ellie's Grandparents or her old school weren't
called to give evidence . Surely they could have provided evidence of her attendance then, lack of injuries and no history of continually falling over as has been suggested by BB. Also maybe they could have provided details of their contact with ELlie and if she had told them anything . It would have probably helped the jury to see the contrast between pre Nov 2012 and post Nov 2012. I think it also interested that the younger sibling only attended nursery on 3 occasions I believe from sept until Ellie died. If he hated being at home with the children so much why not take them both to school. Some reasons given for Ellie's lack of attendance is respiratory tract. Would not affect the younger o ne going. We're they worried that the younger would also start to spill the beans?

Re the blood. Note Ellie had a blood stained bandage on in the video which in my view was a week or so before she died so traces of that could have been around and JG was also seen to go into work a week before with a great big bump on her head so could have also had a nose bleed or something when injured The expert evidenceonly said recent it did not determine it was that day but o might be wrong. The blood from JG down the hallway and in Ellie's room and on the kitchen tiles. And then washing machine implies to me she took off her shirt upstairs maybe tried to wash it in the sink upstairs and it has dropped a path back down the hall maybe she walked back into Ellie's room and then To the kitchen. Maybe another wash in the sink and the. The washing machine. But I still don't get why so much blood from JG. Something doesn't fit as the suggestion is it was the shirt she wore to work that she put in the wash but there is no suggestion it was Ellie's blood on it but only Jgs and jgs on the washing machine door so where did it come from and if it was not Ellie's blood on her shirt why wash it ?

I have heard that a carpet sample from Ellie's bedroom was given to the expert BB called on Friday so without being too graphic that would imply a pool of blood there but don't know if anyone has heard evidence re this . Maybe the blood on her pillow is a red herring and has been there from a previous assault. BB knew it was there and just tried to get rid anyway. There was clearly so much going on in that house that there would be incriminating evidence everywhere.

Totally agree. There WAS so much going on in the house. That was the problem.
It wouldn't of been too long until Sibling would of said something. Then heavens forbid. If it started all over again.
I don't know if The Grandparents will be called. It may be a fact they've made a statement to the police. Which will be given in evidence.
We shall see. Altho I expect the case to run for sometime yet.
The children would of been under the At Risk Register. And should of been in touch with both Ellie's school, Doctors and possibly Grandparents as there is history there and they'd be more likely to see Ellie than anyone.
It's another case of too little too late. The signs were there. I appreciate resources are tight. But with a family with the history these have. They should of had a follow up at least every 4 weeks. Or Half terms. At the latest.
I don't know how you think JG will get on tomorrow Jog?
I'm thinking we might have hissy fits.

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[Gigi-G]

Cases on BAILII where Dr Van Ee has testified:

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/lucy_...&mask_path=/&query=("van) AND (ee")&sort=rank

So he's into Biometrics..... umm a plastic chair fall crushes the back of the skull making it seep thru? Or same with a bed? OMG how many of us have jumped on and off a bed? Most I got was carpet grazes n a bloody lip.
And his costs???. $18000 to $22000 :0
£16000 £20000 paid by the public purse wth?

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[Gigi-G]

Cases on BAILII where Dr Van Ee has testified:

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/lucy_...&mask_path=/&query=("van) AND (ee")&sort=rank

Good reading. Even if a bit long winded.

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[flutterby]

Think tomorrow is going to be interesting. Maybe she's been playing a long game and will drop BB right in it tomorrow? I doubt it though. Hopefully the pros are on the ball and will question her on her lies. Am I right in thinking her defence does the first questioning? And would it be BB's defence or the pros next?

 

[Supernovae]

Super , as you're online - do you know at all if JG got any bail conditions? As you were one of the earliest posters here I thought you might know.

Also, from your past experience of cases here at WS do you know how SServices monitor if they are being eg. sued for harassment? ( Do you think it might be passed to an independent agency or another borough.) It seems this is quite a common action against them but I would have thought they must have another system in place if the relationship breaks down irrevocably, beyond just removing the kids?

I posted a few queries a page or so ago.

Just saw this. I don't know about bail conditions. I do know they had independent social workers after the children were returned, because of the poor relationship with Sutton social services. This is something that concerns me, because it's just another way they were allowed to play the system to avoid challenge (fragmentation of services is well known from previous cases to be something that impedes effective child protection) because they were posited to be victims in the breakdown of there relationship with Sutton in spite of all there known lies (the least that could be said of them).

 

[jog]

It will be interesting how she plays it. Will she cry to garner sympathy or will she be defiant as she has all along . Interestingly when looking at her interview I think maybe only one of he true things she said was " i feel to blame for working or going to work" or wtte. I initially took that as because she worked she didn't know what was going on but was she really referring to that day in particular? We have seen how they both lie but it is a coupled with a small amount of truth that they twist !

 

[Tortoise]

jog I assumed the carpet and underlay sample was given to their biomechanic expert so that he could work out from the thickness how cushioned her fall would have been, as opposed to it being directly onto concrete. I don't think it was to assess the blood because he isn't a medical expert.

 

[Tillymint]

It seems that their tantrums along the way have managed to change the way they should have been treated by official services. They've had everyone dancing to their own tune, to the point where social services have left themselves open to question. As children newly placed back into birth family care, they should have been having contact with a social worker to check that they were both settling into the new environment. It seems clear that Ellie at least was not settled. She was probably a very confused, unhappy little girl.

 

[Tortoise]

All I've heard is that JG was granted conditional bail, but not the conditions of it.

 

[Tortoise]

I wonder why JG stayed at home, according to her work colleague, to look after Ellie on Friday 25th Oct. I don't recall there being any mention of a school absence on that date.

 

[cottonweaver]

Just saw this. I don't know about bail conditions. I do know they had independent social workers after the children were returned, because of the poor relationship with Sutton social services. This is something that concerns me, because it's just another way they were allowed to play the system to avoid challenge (fragmentation of services is well known from previous cases to be something that impedes effective child protection) because they were posited to be victims in the breakdown of there relationship with Sutton in spite of all there known lies (the least that could be said of them).

Cheers SuperN.
You'd gone off line by the timeI posted so I did find the following:

Probably safe to assume she wasn't under any bail conditions.
On the other matter
UK SServices have only been successfully sued once for this kind of issue, let's call it "harassment" or inccorrect accus of child abuse . Here's the case , described as "historic" because it is unique, ironicallly the parents in the case were social workers themselves. So it's a common theme in parents against injustice websites but NOT common in reality.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ringey-council-tried-to-crush-our-family.html

From this I am assuming BB's solicitor would have told him, in response to any "threats of litigation", the prospects of a conviction were slim as well as he had insufficient evidence to even launch it.
From further reading around it doesn't look like any such idle threat would stop any SS from doing what they needed to- emergency orders for kids BUT it's whether they had sufficient evidence to proceed. ( Can see this being sticking point with all those instances of clever doctor shopping and the school frustrated in getting to the bottom of it.) Basically SS have huge powers to force an assessment and walk into that school and interview Ellie on her own and IIRC they don't need a court order to do that.

On the issue of independents I did find, amongst generic procedures for any SS in event of "irrevocable breakdown" in family-SS contact, a mention of the involvement of outside agencies but can't find the link now., be back later, with it. So there's a "loophole" in the monitoring of E as is doubtless SS getting successful court orders in light of what happened 2007-2012 ( conviction 1 and it's quashing.)