GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

[Gigi-G]

Gosh I'm still catching up. Not feeling it tonight. My bones are aching. My brain is too. So I'm gonna call it quits for tonight. I'm loving the input tho. Tortoise and Cottonweaver thanks for reading my mind n bringing up questions I was querying. Kudos. Stay safe everyone. This is about to die (fone) so am sticking it on charge catch up with you tomoz x

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[Tillymint]

Him attacking someone to 'defend' or 'protect' Jennie will have also made her think he must love her after all. One of those glimmers of hope someone mentioned on a previous post, that kept her devotion hanging on in the hopes he would change to be a loving partner who didn't attack her.

 

[cottonweaver]

Him attacking someone to 'defend' or 'protect' Jennie will have also made her think he must love her after all. One of those glimmers of hope someone mentioned on a previous post, that kept her devotion hanging on in the hopes he would change to be a loving partner who didn't attack her.

Totally, ( IF it happened) she would have loved that.

Look at what he said 2004 though to the psych in relation to a different night club assault:

""He believed that violence could help him improve his mood when he was upset. Historically he would become angry and punch people.
"He was adamant he had never hit anybody without a reason. He also said at times he would find it difficult to control his violence when he felt humiliated or was made fun of.
"Mr Butler stated he believed he would continue to hit out at other men when he felt he has been threatened. This is more likely when his mood is low which happens about two or three times a week."

OK , it is a 2004 assessment and the kebab shop assault is 2010 apparently. That's a high frequency of low moods and a very weird way to alleviate them too.

 

[cottonweaver]

Gosh I'm still catching up. Not feeling it tonight. My bones are aching. My brain is too. So I'm gonna call it quits for tonight. I'm loving the input tho. Tortoise and Cottonweaver thanks for reading my mind n bringing up questions I was querying. Kudos. Stay safe everyone. This is about to die (fone) so am sticking it on charge catch up with you tomoz x

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Me too nighty night to you and all - have to reserve something left to say on JG tomorrow.

 

[Tortoise]

BIB Do you mean his first two police statements? Will these be the delaying of the 999 etc - ie. wonder if they will perfectly match her "perverting the course of justice" admissions? They got their stories straight together?

I don't think it's the police statements (because he just no commented all the way through those) but the statements he would rely on at trial. I suppose they might be called a plea statement? jog will prob. be able to correct me there.

I think they got themselves in a fix over who did what with the cake. She told the ambulance crew (I think) that she had brought cup cakes home and he testified that he had cut up grandma's cake for the girls before she got home. But then Brown QC mentioned 4 pieces of cake cut up on plates in the kitchen, which would be enough for them all to have a piece. So that was a complete fail. Who the hell would be thinking of cake when their child has just died. It beggars belief.

 

[Tortoise]

Totally, ( IF it happened) she would have loved that.

Look at what he said 2004 though to the psych in relation to a different night club assault:


OK , it is a 2004 assessment and the kebab shop assault is 2010 apparently. That's a high frequency of low moods and a very weird way to alleviate them too.

Oh yeah, did I mention that was another 'dud' expert apparently, all part of the conspiracy against him. He never said those things, the guy wasn't even making notes when he interviewed him, according to BB.

 

[Tortoise]

Thinking more about the cake.

Is this the part that unravels his lie? Let's have a closer look at this :websleuther:

Without his cake story he has NO reason to discover Ellie. I suppose he could have invented another reason to call the girls and not get a response, but not if he hasn't realised there is already an account of cake in the ambulance witness statements.

So perhaps on the day;

They had agreed he would go out and walk the dog and JG would chance upon Ellie by getting cake ready and then sending sister upstairs to get Ellie.
He never knew JG had mentioned cupcakes to the ambulance crew because he was sitting in the other bedroom with sister.

Afterwards;

His solicitor asked him to produce a statement for trial, and because he needed a reason to chance upon Ellie in her bedroom he used their cake excuse - brought it forward to happening before JG got home, thinking he could just say JG lied about that part because she's admitted perverting the course of justice.
Only thing is it means that if it was the truth, that she had cut up the cake into 4, while he was out with the dog, it proves his story of going up and 'finding Ellie' didn't happen that way.
If there was a different reason for going up (innocently) what stops him from giving it?

 

[Tortoise]

How did cake transition to cupcakes. Was it just an embellishment decided by JG on the spur of the moment?

 

[Tillymint]

I never understood how she dashed home from work in that sudden, crazy manner saying there was a crisis going on, and then produced cupcakes? None of it makes sense.

 

[Gigi-G]

I never understood how she dashed home from work in that sudden, crazy manner saying there was a crisis going on, and then produced cupcakes? None of it makes sense.

Don't forget. She must of got the taxi to stop on route or there's a shop close by that sells cupcakes....
It doesn't make sense cuz it's all a scheme. But ppl remember tho. When you lie... you've gotta have a good memory to remember what you said. Especially when it involves 2 of you. Cuz the minute yr listeners think. Umm Didn't she this or no it was this. . Yr treading water lady...

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[Gigi-G]

How did cake transition to cupcakes. Was it just an embellishment decided by JG on the spur of the moment?

The Grandparents had brought over a cake that they gave JG when they went to McDonald's to take home. So they already had cake why would JG specifically stop to buy cupcakes when they already had cake is beyond me.

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[Gigi-G]

Gloss paint fumes made my head pound ugh :/ having a warm tea with some pain meds x zzzzzz zzzz

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[cottonweaver]

How did cake transition to cupcakes. Was it just an embellishment decided by JG on the spur of the moment?

Yeah. It all sounded weird to me
see earlier post no. 898
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...trial-for-murder-of-daughter-Ellie-(6)/page60

 

[cottonweaver]

Don't forget. She must of got the taxi to stop on route or there's a shop close by that sells cupcakes....
It doesn't make sense cuz it's all a scheme. But ppl remember tho. When you lie... you've gotta have a good memory to remember what you said. Especially when it involves 2 of you. Cuz the minute yr listeners think. Umm Didn't she this or no it was this. . Yr treading water lady...

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Yes, it's like JG messed up when he called her. These elements weren't meant to be in the first version.

She didn't act naturally at work when she took the call. ( So colleagues testified to her panic)
She ran on the CCTV instead of walking at a casual pace.
Then she told the taxi man that her daughter was very ill and urgently needed a ride.

These actions came back to bite them both.

He will have lambasted her for those errors when they were told about them -maybe as early as at police interview stage

 

[cottonweaver]

Oh yeah, did I mention that was another 'dud' expert apparently, all part of the conspiracy against him. He never said those things, the guy wasn't even making notes when he interviewed him, according to BB.

Now that was silly of him. See he's not that canny.
He should have objected to the accuracy of the psych report due to it's age. It's almost 10 years on now.

IIRC. The psych that interviewed him then, said recently that he was not very happy to testify to that 4 hour psych assessment now, for a crime committed in 2013 due to it's age. ( Events took over and the psych Dr Tim Green is in hosp having major surgery so can't testify anyway. ) It would have been much more credible to object on that basis.

Instead by decrying every expert's credibility, he's doing what the judge reminded him of - "the law of diminishing returns" - just undermining his(BB's) own credibility.

 

[Tortoise]

When the ambulance crew member testified about JG mentioning cupcakes, Tetlow QC on behalf of JG disputed that she had said this at all. Just as he disputed on her behalf that she had told the taxi driver her child was ill.

So I think we can expect her to testify that she never said those things.

I am hoping the prosecution will say to her -

So, you didn't cut up the cake in the kitchen and call up to Ellie?
The paramedic made that up, without knowing there was cake for the girls?
BB says he called the girls to have cake before he found Ellie. Have you changed your story to align with his story?
Because if he didn't prepare the cake, and you did, his story can't be true, can it JG?

 

[Gigi-G]

Yes, it's like JG messed up when he called her. These elements weren't meant to be in the first version.

She didn't act naturally at work when she took the call. ( So colleagues testified to her panic)
She ran on the CCTV instead of walking at a casual pace.
Then she told the taxi man that her daughter was very ill and urgently needed a ride.

These actions came back to bite them both.

He will have lambasted her for those errors when they were told about them -maybe as early as at police interview stage

That whole day wasn't running right with her. Yes UK as a whole was waking up to the damage of the bad storm we had that night. Damage, trees down etc.
But people were aware. Buses were running. Trains were running n buses in place if trains were cancelled. So if you think yr gonna be late you leave earlier?
Not JG. She strolls up to work late that morning. I forget what time I'm sure it's in a previous post somewhere. (It's awkward for me to cut snip n add bits on a fine lol)
Also I'm sure one of her colleagues said she looked rather flustered on seeing her.

She seemingly gets on with her work.
Until she finds text message. From BB saying "Answer"
I'm assuming her fone is on silent mode being at work. And she just picks it up to generally check now and then.
To which she excuses herself and calls.
Then after the call. She starts grabbing her things. And walks out. I'm not sure if she alerts someone at work. She probably does. And leaves the office.
Her moves then are documented. From hailing a cab n off thru London. To Sutton.

So...... where does she get the bloody cupcakes?!!!!! Knowing she already has cake at home!?

She can't of stopped Taxi on route. As I'm sure he'd of said in his witness statement.

Bought them on the way INTO work?
Why? There's cake at home?

Then..... you know the rest.
Except that on entering the home. She's sure she hears Ellie playing upstairs. ?????
She calls Ellie n sister down for cupcakes? Why???? They already have cake....

BOOM...

SHE HEARS ELLIE ON ENTERING THE HOME..
=nope 2nd mistake she makes. Cupcakes n hearing Ellie.
How can you hear someone you already know is dead.

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[squish]

That whole day wasn't running right with her. Yes UK as a whole was waking up to the damage of the bad storm we had that night. Damage, trees down etc.
But people were aware. Buses were running. Trains were running n buses in place if trains were cancelled. So if you think yr gonna be late you leave earlier?
Not JG. She strolls up to work late that morning. I forget what time I'm sure it's in a previous post somewhere. (It's awkward for me to cut snip n add bits on a fine lol)
Also I'm sure one of her colleagues said she looked rather flustered on seeing her.

She seemingly gets on with her work.
Until she finds text message. From BB saying "Answer"
I'm assuming her fone is on silent mode being at work. And she just picks it up to generally check now and then.
To which she excuses herself and calls.
Then after the call. She starts grabbing her things. And walks out. I'm not sure if she alerts someone at work. She probably does. And leaves the office.
Her moves then are documented. From hailing a cab n off thru London. To Sutton.

So...... where does she get the bloody cupcakes?!!!!! Knowing she already has cake at home!?

She can't of stopped Taxi on route. As I'm sure he'd of said in his witness statement.

Bought them on the way INTO work?
Why? There's cake at home?

Then..... you know the rest.
Except that on entering the home. She's sure she hears Ellie playing upstairs. ?????
She calls Ellie n sister down for cupcakes? Why???? They already have cake....

BOOM...

SHE HEARS ELLIE ON ENTERING THE HOME..
=nope 2nd mistake she makes. Cupcakes n hearing Ellie.
How can you hear someone you already know is dead.

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BIB - I wonder if JG was actually late to work because BB had attacked Ellie that morning. The experts said that her injury would have taken 1-6 hours to be fatal. They said she had been dead for two hours before the staged 999 call, putting her time of death at about 12:40 (IIRC the time of the 999 call), and putting the time of the attack approximately between 06:40 - 11:40.

If the attack was before JG was due to leave for work that morning, perhaps the real reason she was late was because they were deciding what to do with an unconscious, injured Ellie. Maybe they decided to just wait it out - as I said in a previous post, Ellie had survived many serious assaults before. And JG went to work as normal, albeit late. (Do I recall that at work that day JG told a random lie that the children were with their godfather and BB was away? A spur of the moment, pre-emptive alibi concoction?) Then around midday BB frantically phoned her to tell her that Ellie was dead.

 

[Tortoise]

BIB - I wonder if JG was actually late to work because BB had attacked Ellie that morning. The experts said that her injury would have taken 1-6 hours to be fatal. They said she had been dead for two hours before the staged 999 call, putting her time of death at about 12:40 (IIRC the time of the 999 call), and putting the time of the attack approximately between 06:40 - 11:40.

If the attack was before JG was due to leave for work that morning, perhaps the real reason she was late was because they were deciding what to do with an unconscious, injured Ellie. Maybe they decided to just wait it out - as I said in a previous post, Ellie had survived many serious assaults before. And JG went to work as normal, albeit late. (Do I recall that at work that day JG told a random lie that the children were with their godfather and BB was away? A spur of the moment, pre-emptive alibi concoction?) Then around midday BB frantically phoned her to tell her that Ellie was dead.

I have to agree with this line of thinking, I've always thought it odd that she left late that morning. BB said she had been dithering about whether to go in that morning, but seeing as everyone else went in she decided she wouldn't get away with staying at home. Now I'm not liking that explanation, it was just a feeling I got as he was telling it, that it was a lie. Something about a shift in his voice pattern. Plus, it was a new job and she would be trying to impress, especially having already taken a day off to look after Ellie recently I seem to recall. I think she would have made that decision to go in a lot earlier, she left well after 9am. It's also always strange when there is a long detailed explanation for something so seemingly ordinary and inconsequential, as the time JG left for work. I don't think 3 years later he would focus on why she left late for work, unless it was something that had been thought over. It just wasn't relevant to Ellie's later 'fall' on his version.

I had wondered whether he and JG had had a fight that morning but your theory fits better for me. I'll tell you why, because she texted him on her journey in to work several times saying honey or babe and lots of kisses. And it made my BS radar start bleeping. Over the top, especially for these two at each others throats constantly. That could have been a cover up that they had agreed on if there was going to be a hospital visit necessary for Ellie, and a police investigation, to show there were no problems that morning when the injury occurred. He says his phone was off and he didn't see her texts, and he went to sleep. That seems like a very implausible scenario for a morning with two littl'uns in the house to me. His Nytol excuse also seemed far fetched to make him drowsy 12 hours later. When he texted back all he said was ok. That could have been a coded message to signify nothing's happening yet. And then phones her and texts answer. Something has changed. Ellie's fallen unconscious or having a heart attack maybe. Perhaps he had left a pillow under her head and that explains the blood, so he moved the pillow away to stage a fall. Tries to sponge off the blood and dilutes it. A green scrubby sponge was in the rubbish bags he got rid of. Would it have been too dilute to get a blood test from? It would have looked suspicious if her pillow was missing when the police investigated the house, so he didn't get rid of it.

I'm all for this scenario of an earlier injury, with the time range given by the pathologists.

 

[Gigi-G]

BIB - I wonder if JG was actually late to work because BB had attacked Ellie that morning. The experts said that her injury would have taken 1-6 hours to be fatal. They said she had been dead for two hours before the staged 999 call, putting her time of death at about 12:40 (IIRC the time of the 999 call), and putting the time of the attack approximately between 06:40 - 11:40.

If the attack was before JG was due to leave for work that morning, perhaps the real reason she was late was because they were deciding what to do with an unconscious, injured Ellie. Maybe they decided to just wait it out - as I said in a previous post, Ellie had survived many serious assaults before. And JG went to work as normal, albeit late. (Do I recall that at work that day JG told a random lie that the children were with their godfather and BB was away? A spur of the moment, pre-emptive alibi concoction?) Then around midday BB frantically phoned her to tell her that Ellie was dead.

Oh my word! Yes!
Well spotted Squish... BB was supposedly visiting family in Cornwall?
Need to find that bit of statement/testimony.
Now it's gotta take a good 3 hours to travel by car from Cornwall to London.
But why say that in the first instance.
To give him an alibi that put him out of the scene of Ellie's death?

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