GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

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Also, she was pretty fresh out of her first marriage. ( She re-used her old married name again when she was pregnant and did flit to avoid Sutton social services.)

Come sentencing day I would not be surprised to read an interview with one of their exes in the Daily Mail or such like, others will want to "live it down" of course.
 
Hi, I'm a new member although have lurked for a few years, keeping up with threads on Becky Watts, Mikaeel Kular etc. I think the work you do here is incredible, I've never really felt I could add to the discussion but this case has really affected me for personal reasons. I too was taken away from birth parents as a baby and never went back although I know from my ss files that it was considered when I was about three years old. I thank my lucky stars because my birth parents went on to have more children who were at risk. This couple remind me very much of my birth parents, trying to cast blame on everyone but themselves, the violent man with the needy woman who keeps having babies by accident etc. I know that's sort of irrelevant to the case, but I do see such similarities between them that it's startling.
I believe he did kill Ellie, I believe he ruled over that household with his anger and vile words. She let him. It's terribly sad. I hope this was ok to post.
 
Hi, I'm a new member although have lurked for a few years, keeping up with threads on Becky Watts, Mikaeel Kular etc. I think the work you do here is incredible, I've never really felt I could add to the discussion but this case has really affected me for personal reasons. I too was taken away from birth parents as a baby and never went back although I know from my ss files that it was considered when I was about three years old. I thank my lucky stars because my birth parents went on to have more children who were at risk. This couple remind me very much of my birth parents, trying to cast blame on everyone but themselves, the violent man with the needy woman who keeps having babies by accident etc. I know that's sort of irrelevant to the case, but I do see such similarities between them that it's startling.
I believe he did kill Ellie, I believe he ruled over that household with his anger and vile words. She let him. It's terribly sad. I hope this was ok to post.

Hey, I'm pleased you've joined us.

And welcome to all our newbies...

:welcome3:

It's great to have your input to the discussion.
 
Tilly, that is a moving post.
Welcome here.

This must be very raw for you. Please keep posting without thinking that personal links are not a relevant contribution - they are.

We are all mindful of the youngest sister here and the legacy they have left her, during their short "parenthood" of her as well as through using her during the staging.
At some point when she is of age, she will want to know what happened. She was only 3 at the time, ( I thought she was older for a while as reporting restrictions were made re. her, understandably.) We try and be mindful when we are sleuthing that her new adoptive parents might be reading this too etc

We have hoped now, almost 3 years on, she is already with a fab family. Although the grandparents probably wanted to look after her too, their age and health and also what they have been through since 2013 may have made that impossible.
So I imagine she is permanently placed with adoptive parents already and has received some help too.
Ultimately she is the lucky one, it's just so sad that they fought to get her back, she would have been adopted much sooner. ( You can see some of those 2012 family court battles cited in the first few pages of posts, but we aren't allowed to go into that at detail until the trial is over. )

We seem to see more and more of these kinds of child abuse cases, although this level of joint staging and the history makes this one unusual.

No idea why SServices stopped visiting in March 2013 ( Lack of resources? More likely IMO = threats of litigation?) as we know she received a lot of injuries after that time. ( He claims to have been contacting solicitors to "cover his back" in June 2013 , so likely the pair were fighting SS again.)
 
Thank you so much for all your welcoming words, perhaps I should have joined up a long time ago!
Tortoise, I'm in awe of your efforts in going to the court and then posting such well thought out, considered posts. It can't be easy to listen to or watch. Your descriptions of their behaviour in court has left me so uncomfortable, so I can't imagine how you must have felt! I can't believe they're getting away with all this shouting and gesturing, I thought that wasn't allowed. It says a lot about them though - self absorbed, volatile.
 
WOW you lot have been busy haven't you?
I get decorating with the Grumpy one n come back on with a whole Essay to read!
Amazing! :)

A big warm welcome on a chilly wet day to all our new Poster's.
It's great to have you on board!

And thanks for all the new info.. Grumpy says mega thanks cuz it means his ears get a break from me .... :0

Roll on Monday... That's all I can say! :)

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
Thank you so much for all your welcoming words, perhaps I should have joined up a long time ago!
Tortoise, I'm in awe of your efforts in going to the court and then posting such well thought out, considered posts. It can't be easy to listen to or watch. Your descriptions of their behaviour in court has left me so uncomfortable, so I can't imagine how you must have felt! I can't believe they're getting away with all this shouting and gesturing, I thought that wasn't allowed. It says a lot about them though - self absorbed, volatile.

Thank you Tilly. Yes you should have joined up long ago. Everyone's views and thoughts are useful, whatever their standpoint.

I expected more discipline in the court too, but the jury seem to be giving them short shrift, and ignoring them.
 
Thank you Tilly. Yes you should have joined up long ago. Everyone's views and thoughts are useful, whatever their standpoint.

I expected more discipline in the court too, but the jury seem to be giving them short shrift, and ignoring them.

I loved it when you told us that security were ready for any more outbursts and it was going to be "clear the court" pronto.

If the judge wont deal with it, the jury certainly will through total disregard.
Maybe also the judge has called the jury foreperson in and said something? When a defendant is claiming "mafia", the system, muzzling, conspiracy, unfair trial, police planting evidence, stooge medical experts....can't remember the rest .... there's more ...LOL ...maybe Judge thinks it better to let them make a spectacle of themselves than go for contempt.

naughty PS - JG will be doing her Wicca spells etc tonight and wearing her talismans tomorrow - you need to take your crystals with you to soak up the negative energy if you go tomorrow - plus some coffee beans to suck! ( Joke)
 
I loved it when you told us that security were ready for any more outbursts and it was going to be "clear the court" pronto.

If the judge wont deal with it, the jury certainly will through total disregard.
Maybe also the judge has called the jury foreperson in and said something? When a defendant is claiming "mafia", the system, muzzling, conspiracy, unfair trial, police planting evidence, stooge medical experts....can't remember the rest .... there's more ...LOL ...maybe Judge thinks it better to let them make a spectacle of themselves than go for contempt.

naughty PS - JG will be doing her Wicca spells etc tonight and wearing her talismans tomorrow - you need to take your crystals with you to soak up the negative energy if you go tomorrow - plus some coffee beans to suck! ( Joke)

Exactly this, like I said before give them enough rope to hang themselves. This is exactly the right approach with someone like Ben Butler: let him show the jury exactly what he's like while giving him as little ammunition as possible to say he's been silenced.
 
I loved it when you told us that security were ready for any more outbursts and it was going to be "clear the court" pronto.

If the judge wont deal with it, the jury certainly will through total disregard.
Maybe also the judge has called the jury foreperson in and said something? When a defendant is claiming "mafia", the system, muzzling, conspiracy, unfair trial, police planting evidence, stooge medical experts....can't remember the rest .... there's more ...LOL ...maybe Judge thinks it better to let them make a spectacle of themselves than go for contempt.

naughty PS - JG will be doing her Wicca spells etc tonight and wearing her talismans tomorrow - you need to take your crystals with you to soak up the negative energy if you go tomorrow - plus some coffee beans to suck! ( Joke)

I would imagine this judge is letting some of the behaviour go because he wants to be extremely careful to ensure that if convicted BB will have no grounds to appeal. He will be aware of how litigious BB is I am sure. He probably also is of the view that their outbursts affect nobody but themselves . If he believed it was having an adverse impact on witnesses or jurors he would step on as he is incredibly experienced. It is a shame they didn't put bail conditions on JG that she could have no contact with BB which would have prevented her visiting him in prison or speaking on the phone, I am surprised they didn't !
 
Exactly this, like I said before give them enough rope to hang themselves. This is exactly the right approach with someone like Ben Butler: let him show the jury exactly what he's like while giving him as little ammunition as possible to say he's been silenced.

Agreed. Previously it was just "effing & jeffing" but now that he is casting wild aspersions it's better to let conspiracy junkie blather on as it's beyond credible.
 
I would imagine this judge is letting some of the behaviour go because he wants to be extremely careful to ensure that if convicted BB will have no grounds to appeal. He will be aware of how litigious BB is I am sure. He probably also is of the view that their outbursts affect nobody but themselves . If he believed it was having an adverse impact on witnesses or jurors he would step on as he is incredibly experienced. It is a shame they didn't put bail conditions on JG that she could have no contact with BB which would have prevented her visiting him in prison or speaking on the phone, I am surprised they didn't !

yes and I thought previously it's about diverse cultural norms now, so not every judge will penalise profanity, although some still do. BB likes to style himself as a working class salt of the earth geezer etc etc.

Do we know the bail conditions/ if there are any? Not seen anything in the links from the bail report back then.
They do have a right to listen -in to prison phone calls, apparently.
 
yes and I thought previously it's about diverse cultural norms now, so not every judge will penalise profanity, although some still do. BB likes to style himself as a working class salt of the earth geezer etc etc.

Do we know the bail conditions/ if there are any? Not seen anything in the links from the bail report back then.
They do have a right to listen -in to prison phone calls, apparently.
JG would have been reminded of her bail conditions at the beginning of the trial after that she will just be told each evening she is on bail as before. Her conditions are a matter of public record so the clerk of the court can be asked them. All phone calls in and out of the prison are monitored and BB has to provide a list to the prison of all the phone numbers he wishes to ring and the details of the person they are to . Having been in prison before he will be aware all calls are monitored and will not say anything incriminating on them. Interesting he sacked his previous solicitors. To be allowed to change solicitors and therefore cause more expense to the public purse he would have to have had a very good reason , the main one is usually a break down in the relationship or the solicitor becomes professionally embarrassed . IMO the reason would therefore be his solicitor wouldn't follow his unreasonable instructions or he has told them something and then changed his story meaning they can no longer act! I would bet on the latter! He must be a nightmare to represent and will be a complaint waiting to happen. I pity these solicitors if he is convicted because he will be including them on his list of people who have wronged him !
 
Tortoise- I think you mentioned a boob job? Is this something you heard about in court? TIA :)
 
JG would have been reminded of her bail conditions at the beginning of the trial after that she will just be told each evening she is on bail as before. Her conditions are a matter of public record so the clerk of the court can be asked them. All phone calls in and out of the prison are monitored and BB has to provide a list to the prison of all the phone numbers he wishes to ring and the details of the person they are to . Having been in prison before he will be aware all calls are monitored and will not say anything incriminating on them. Interesting he sacked his previous solicitors. To be allowed to change solicitors and therefore cause more expense to the public purse he would have to have had a very good reason , the main one is usually a break down in the relationship or the solicitor becomes professionally embarrassed . IMO the reason would therefore be his solicitor wouldn't follow his unreasonable instructions or he has told them something and then changed his story meaning they can no longer act! I would bet on the latter! He must be a nightmare to represent and will be a complaint waiting to happen. I pity these solicitors if he is convicted because he will be including them on his list of people who have wronged him !

I haven't been in court when they've read his defence statements to the jury, if they have, but I did note that he has admitted his first two statements were a lie. The prosecutor asked him if his medical experts had been instructed on the basis of those lies, but he was told he didn't have to answer that if he wanted to rely on some legal privilege or other. He chose not to answer the question.
 
Tortoise- I think you mentioned a boob job? Is this something you heard about in court? TIA :)

Hi flutterby. Yes, he told the court about it when he was explaining the 2010 assault in the kebab shop. He said JG had had her *advertiser censored* done (as he held his hands out over his chest to demonstrate) and was wearing a mini skirt, and this guy put his hand up her skirt. So he punched him.

I actually find myself struggling to believe that a stranger would have touched her. I suspect it was something more along the lines of an admiring look or a comment. In any case, what surprises me more is that he treated her protectively when he wants the court to believe they weren't ever in a relationship, they were just best friends who had sex now and again and kept producing babies :D
 
Hi flutterby. Yes, he told the court about it when he was explaining the 2010 assault in the kebab shop. He said JG had had her *advertiser censored* done (as he held his hands out over his chest to demonstrate) and was wearing a mini skirt, and this guy put his hand up her skirt. So he punched him.

I actually find myself struggling to believe that a stranger would have touched her. I suspect it was something more along the lines of an admiring look or a comment. In any case, what surprises me more is that he treated her protectively when he wants the court to believe they weren't ever in a relationship, they were just best friends who had sex now and again and kept producing babies :D
It is an ownership / his property thing with him. Same as with his children. He didn't want JG or the children really but they to him were his property and his deluded belief that he had a right to get them back
 
JG would have been reminded of her bail conditions at the beginning of the trial after that she will just be told each evening she is on bail as before. Her conditions are a matter of public record so the clerk of the court can be asked them. All phone calls in and out of the prison are monitored and BB has to provide a list to the prison of all the phone numbers he wishes to ring and the details of the person they are to . Having been in prison before he will be aware all calls are monitored and will not say anything incriminating on them. Interesting he sacked his previous solicitors. To be allowed to change solicitors and therefore cause more expense to the public purse he would have to have had a very good reason , the main one is usually a break down in the relationship or the solicitor becomes professionally embarrassed . IMO the reason would therefore be his solicitor wouldn't follow his unreasonable instructions or he has told them something and then changed his story meaning they can no longer act! I would bet on the latter! He must be a nightmare to represent and will be a complaint waiting to happen. I pity these solicitors if he is convicted because he will be including them on his list of people who have wronged him !

BIB This is good to know. So basically she isn't under any conditions. As Tortoise has "reported" the pair are very much working on the case together, passing each other notes, speaking to each other at trial. As they are co-defendants are they only entitled to comm via their solicitors or are they allowed to meet with their sols present to discuss their strategy? Seems strange if they are barred as they are communicating in full view and passing papers etc without a care.

On the call monitoring front - do you really think the authorities do monitor in practice - that's the issue I was left with when I checked that monitoring is possible. Their face to face visits will not be that closely monitored though will they? That seems contradictory.

UL That's interesting.. I have no idea how many firms he has used since 2013 and I'm pretty sure he's used to dealing with them as this guy has needed to use one off & on since 2004 that we know of! Plus this trial has been delayed so many times.

He was in contact with a solicitor before E died, on at least two occasions Feb & June 2013 I guess maybe due to social services/school pressure.. By 2014 he is representing himself briefly as he was without solicitors and the trial had to be put back. Maybe he now needed someone more specialist in crim defence as opposed to family law?

During cross he said he had "sacked" one team, IDK if he means the 2013 firm or in fact he's had another lot since then. Anyway, he hasn't said why he sacked them except something like he wasn't going to be a "d%ckhead" turning up for trial with them/not ready. I am sure they are very grateful to be sacked, whoever they are.

He's also claimed all manner of conspiracy re arrangements of the cremation not being agreed by his solicitors, but as Tortoise found out from court that argument was also a non starter. ( ie that vital evidence was thus lost)

He is in receipt of Legal Aid and the rules have changed haven't they, more restrictive - will that have had an impact on what he can do re litigation of all and sundry as let's face it he has a number of different authorities in his sights at the moment.
Almost lost count.....police, CPS, his ex-solicitors ( ?) .......... Threats of litigation might have worked with Avenue School though as a fob off.
I am interested though, in whether it would be good enough reason to stop SServices visiting though, for the last 6 months of her life.
 
Hi flutterby. Yes, he told the court about it when he was explaining the 2010 assault in the kebab shop. He said JG had had her *advertiser censored* done (as he held his hands out over his chest to demonstrate) and was wearing a mini skirt, and this guy put his hand up her skirt. So he punched him.

I actually find myself struggling to believe that a stranger would have touched her. I suspect it was something more along the lines of an admiring look or a comment. In any case, what surprises me more is that he treated her protectively when he wants the court to believe they weren't ever in a relationship, they were just best friends who had sex now and again and kept producing babies :D

I agree I thought it was convenient excuse for the assault and naturally JG would back up whatever he said spurred him to assault.
Butler also attacked a man in a kebab shop in Wimbledon in June 2010, after claiming he had touched up his girlfriend and co-defendant, Jennie Gray.

Mr Fitzgerald said: “He said somebody had touched up his girlfriend.”

Butler later pleaded guilty to battery

- See more at: http://www.newstoday.co.uk/2016/05/...ous-girlfriend/#sthash.bkkE5e3i.7YweDnP2.dpuf

Another paper also said "he thought the man had touched up his girlfriend"
IMO he embellishes as he goes along.

In the This Morning interview, the photo of her has the tell tale look of surgery. No doubt she did that at his encouragement - yet she had spent so much time in hospitals over the years.
 
I haven't been in court when they've read his defence statements to the jury, if they have, but I did note that he has admitted his first two statements were a lie. The prosecutor asked him if his medical experts had been instructed on the basis of those lies, but he was told he didn't have to answer that if he wanted to rely on some legal privilege or other. He chose not to answer the question.

BIB Do you mean his first two police statements? Will these be the delaying of the 999 etc - ie. wonder if they will perfectly match her "perverting the course of justice" admissions? They got their stories straight together?
 
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