GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1
- Thread starter Lyra500
- Start date
- Status
cottonweaver
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 20, 2014
- Messages
- 9,139
- Reaction score
- 31,583
BTW re. issue of days off school during shoulder injury....... from link on page 1 of this thread - thought I'b better back track to page 1
http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/dads-abusive-texts-reveal-toxic-7788206
ie. this is another bump to the head, separate to the shoulder, who knows the cause of that one, 2 weeks prior to death.
http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/dads-abusive-texts-reveal-toxic-7788206
ie. this is another bump to the head, separate to the shoulder, who knows the cause of that one, 2 weeks prior to death.
Tortoise
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2015
- Messages
- 26,933
- Reaction score
- 137,726
Quote -
The court also heard from a doctor who insisted he was right nearly 10 years ago when he testified that Ellie was shaken as a baby. Neil Stoodley, a consultant neuro radiologist, told the murder trial that he had no reason to alter his opinion in light of new medical evidence.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...tler-ellie-butler-death-peppa-pig-fall-theory
The court also heard from a doctor who insisted he was right nearly 10 years ago when he testified that Ellie was shaken as a baby. Neil Stoodley, a consultant neuro radiologist, told the murder trial that he had no reason to alter his opinion in light of new medical evidence.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...tler-ellie-butler-death-peppa-pig-fall-theory
Tortoise
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2015
- Messages
- 26,933
- Reaction score
- 137,726
Another quote
The jury also heard from consultant neuroradiologist Neil Stoodley, who told Mr Butler's 2007 trial at Croydon Crown Court Ellie, then a baby, had suffered injuries as a result of being shaken.
He also reiterated his findings at the Court of Appeal in 2012, following which Ellie was returned to her parent's custody.
Challenging the doctor on his earlier evidence, Mr Peart asked whether Mr Stoodley thought his previous diagnosis was "incorrect".
The consultant replied: "No, not on the basis of the evidence as I understand it."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36204892
The jury also heard from consultant neuroradiologist Neil Stoodley, who told Mr Butler's 2007 trial at Croydon Crown Court Ellie, then a baby, had suffered injuries as a result of being shaken.
He also reiterated his findings at the Court of Appeal in 2012, following which Ellie was returned to her parent's custody.
Challenging the doctor on his earlier evidence, Mr Peart asked whether Mr Stoodley thought his previous diagnosis was "incorrect".
The consultant replied: "No, not on the basis of the evidence as I understand it."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36204892
cottonweaver
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 20, 2014
- Messages
- 9,139
- Reaction score
- 31,583
forgot to post this earlier, photo by journalist at Old Bailey
Odd. A photo of her filming , outside court, presumably filming the press - now why would she be doing that? Any ideas?
http://img.thesun.co.uk/aidemitlum/archive/02829/jennie_2829061a.jpg
Odd. A photo of her filming , outside court, presumably filming the press - now why would she be doing that? Any ideas?
http://img.thesun.co.uk/aidemitlum/archive/02829/jennie_2829061a.jpg
Tortoise
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2015
- Messages
- 26,933
- Reaction score
- 137,726
I'd imagine it's some sort of coping strategy - film the people who are filming you. She has to stand there when she wants a smoke. I don't think she's building evidence of stalking if that's what you mean.
I think maybe she's doing it for maybe another claim for compensation as she's being stalked by x y and z.
I really don't know. They both have 'odd' about them. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if it is for as I stated. NOTHING.... they are very Enigmatic. They might be of a lower iq. But with their exchanging notes thru the trial. I'm sure BB has got JG researching the www. In readiness for their 'defence'
Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
cottonweaver
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 20, 2014
- Messages
- 9,139
- Reaction score
- 31,583
Yes they did attempt to sue the police ( not soc services though?) for wrongful arrest last time. And she does say in her 2012 joint interviews wtte - "when I felt I couldn't go on, Ben told me we must fight, fight, fight " and the interviewer noted she was "furious" even then in 2012.
It's been almost 2.5 yrs since Ellie was killed and yet they appear ( from Tortoise & Flourish's posts about their notes, hearing discussions etc ) to be united in this fight. The fight over the SBS conviction. Fight SS for two years to get the kids back.
Whilst I'd hate to be photographed outside court every day, I would have worn a hat/ shades and a big scarf and looked down - even over a minor offence!
Honestly? I assume this is one of his bright ideas - afterwards we'll show how we have been hounded once again, when we finally win. blah blah blah.
He's deluded and has managed to suck her into his madness.
What completely took me by surprise is that it is mainly her on the full 999 tape - I assumed it was HIS voice raging & shouting , it was so distorted.
Supernovae
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2014
- Messages
- 881
- Reaction score
- 1,202
Interesting article on Prof Risdon and Dr Scheimberg from 2011:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9389000/9389553.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9389000/9389553.stm
Same here. I'd be wearing over sized sunnies and a pashmina to cover up. In that picture of her filming the press. Is it me or dies she seem to have a sarcastic grin going on.
It's like she's very brazen about her court appearances. Almost cocky like. Maybe he's convinced her they will get the hearing turned upside down. By keeping on plugging at the Peppa pig scenario.
I really cannot see the wood for the trees at the moment. The prosecution are really gonna have to pull evidence out of the bag with this one..
Did anyone find anything out about what are the bedroom floors made up of.... concrete or wooden?
As I'm sure or I'd hope at least that will be brought up. As on a wooden floor. The wood will give to a hard fall. Only other way Ellie could of gotten such awful injuries to her skull would be from the radiators. But then you'd have evidence on the radiator itself. And I've not seen or heard anything of that description.
Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
Interesting reading.. thank you.
Well I've read of some cases of Child Abuse. Where the parents were both on trial. But the evidence stated that neither parent was at fault. It was evident that there was no foul play. But Sudden Infant Death Syndrome.
I know it's nothing to do with the case we are following. But it goes to show that how in depth these specialists in anthropology and paediatrics. Delve even deeper into their field to find supporting evidence
Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
Okay after reading this it jerked my memory. To another issue.
In this post it actually states that on the day of Ellie's death. BB was at home alone with Ellie and another child.
Right yes we got that.
Now where's the other child when all this is kicking off. The abusive tirade of shouting foul words.
Where was she?
The broken scapula incident. Where was the other child. Was the other child as compliant as Ellie had to be. Or she got a beating too? Or was it just Ellie he raged at? ( which makes me wonder does he resents just HER?)
The other child must hear all this going on. And the poor love is going to need so much therapy in the formative years. Hopefully she's younger and maybe that stands in her favour. To fade these awful times. Was there a chance that Ellie wasn't his? Or did BB feel trapped and resented that JG fell pregnant. While they hadn't really discussed having children. And claimed she fell pregnant while taking contraception. (Maybe she thought giving him a child they made together would seal n bond their relationship)
Too many ifs and what's and why fors.
Just trying to reason why Ellie was singled out.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crim...tures-in-short-life-court-hears-a3239296.html
Now. We learned that after the incident happened and Ellie was led there. Did BB try resuscitation ?
Or did he realise then something was really wrong this time. And in a blind panic. Raced around the home. Collecting all evidence of his temper issues that he knew JG wrote down. N the letters she had written him. Notebooks too. Anything that could possibly frame him as the monster we now know he is. He bagged it a up. Grabbed the puppy and went for a walk we are led to believe. Where he casually dumped all he gathered and put it in a dumpster not too far away.
Now here is my issue... he's left a potentially dead or dying child. And her sibling ALONE in the home.
He could of started cpr and maybe just maybe Ellie may of survived. Long shot I know. But it seems all he was worried about was saving his own arse.
After he fought for 2 years to clear his name and get Ellie back to her family.
He LEFT the younger sibling at home alone while he went off doing what he had to do.
That poor child. Especially if she'd heard what went on. Or even seen some of what went on. The child really needs out of that toxic life. Needs to be interviewed by specially trained police. To see what she actually does know. Becuz I bet what she's hiding inside. Would make yr toes curl...
This whole thing is far from an ordinary child abuse case.. far far FAR much more.
In moo. As always.
Sorry for essay type post.
Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
In this post it actually states that on the day of Ellie's death. BB was at home alone with Ellie and another child.
Right yes we got that.
Now where's the other child when all this is kicking off. The abusive tirade of shouting foul words.
Where was she?
The broken scapula incident. Where was the other child. Was the other child as compliant as Ellie had to be. Or she got a beating too? Or was it just Ellie he raged at? ( which makes me wonder does he resents just HER?)
The other child must hear all this going on. And the poor love is going to need so much therapy in the formative years. Hopefully she's younger and maybe that stands in her favour. To fade these awful times. Was there a chance that Ellie wasn't his? Or did BB feel trapped and resented that JG fell pregnant. While they hadn't really discussed having children. And claimed she fell pregnant while taking contraception. (Maybe she thought giving him a child they made together would seal n bond their relationship)
Too many ifs and what's and why fors.
Just trying to reason why Ellie was singled out.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crim...tures-in-short-life-court-hears-a3239296.html
Now. We learned that after the incident happened and Ellie was led there. Did BB try resuscitation ?
Or did he realise then something was really wrong this time. And in a blind panic. Raced around the home. Collecting all evidence of his temper issues that he knew JG wrote down. N the letters she had written him. Notebooks too. Anything that could possibly frame him as the monster we now know he is. He bagged it a up. Grabbed the puppy and went for a walk we are led to believe. Where he casually dumped all he gathered and put it in a dumpster not too far away.
Now here is my issue... he's left a potentially dead or dying child. And her sibling ALONE in the home.
He could of started cpr and maybe just maybe Ellie may of survived. Long shot I know. But it seems all he was worried about was saving his own arse.
After he fought for 2 years to clear his name and get Ellie back to her family.
He LEFT the younger sibling at home alone while he went off doing what he had to do.
That poor child. Especially if she'd heard what went on. Or even seen some of what went on. The child really needs out of that toxic life. Needs to be interviewed by specially trained police. To see what she actually does know. Becuz I bet what she's hiding inside. Would make yr toes curl...
This whole thing is far from an ordinary child abuse case.. far far FAR much more.
In moo. As always.
Sorry for essay type post.
Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
Tortoise
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2015
- Messages
- 26,933
- Reaction score
- 137,726
The evidence we've heard varies in terms of how long Ellie would have survived with a head injury of that severity. It ranges from more than an hour to within an hour, and not more than a few minutes. Either way BB was in the home and knew it had happened because he called JG to come home. She left immediately without saying anything to her colleagues, and pleaded with the taxi driver to take her because her child was very ill. She didn't waste time waiting for trains.
So both parents knew Ellie was dead before they staged the call to the ambulance.
We can say he knew because
- he went to so much effort to rid the flat of evidence of violence in the relationship, so he knew he would be suspected and investigated, which doesn't automatically happen when a child has accidentally fallen and might survive.
- he did not call an ambulance immediately, which he probably would do if there had been an accident and there was a chance Ellie could be rescued.
- he tried to set up an alibi where others would see him behaving normally, by walking the dog, smiling and speaking to neighbours and sending text messages.
We can say she knew because
- she was in the home for an hour before the call to emergency services and she did not in that time try to save Ellie's life.
- she helped BB stage the scene.
Gigi I think from the timings I've seen, when BB walked the dog JG was already home.
What mother would not immediately tend to her dying daughter - if she thought she had accidentally fallen?
What type of parents could carry on acting normally, not be screaming out, and cut up cake and set up a younger child to discover such a scene, when their daughter has DIED?
What mother can sit for an hour in a taxi, speaking to her daughter's killer, and not call the police and an ambulance before she gets home, to save her daughter if she is still alive or to arrest her partner if he has killed her?
JG didn't inflict the injuries but I feel by her behaviour she murdered her daughter also. I don't think a charge of cruelty and perverting the course of justice is enough. To me it's almost like she was complicit in the death of her child.
Nothing, no person, would stop me from getting to my injured or dying child and doing everything humanly possible to try to save her.
They knew it wasn't a Peppa Pig jumping accident. If it was, one of that pair if not both of them, would have called an ambulance immediately, there would be nothing to hide and nothing to stage. Even with the prior conviction.
I'm not buying that as his victim her responsibility in this is somehow diminished. If you have children you have to protect them as first priority, even if you choose not to protect yourself.
All in my opinion.
So both parents knew Ellie was dead before they staged the call to the ambulance.
We can say he knew because
- he went to so much effort to rid the flat of evidence of violence in the relationship, so he knew he would be suspected and investigated, which doesn't automatically happen when a child has accidentally fallen and might survive.
- he did not call an ambulance immediately, which he probably would do if there had been an accident and there was a chance Ellie could be rescued.
- he tried to set up an alibi where others would see him behaving normally, by walking the dog, smiling and speaking to neighbours and sending text messages.
We can say she knew because
- she was in the home for an hour before the call to emergency services and she did not in that time try to save Ellie's life.
- she helped BB stage the scene.
Gigi I think from the timings I've seen, when BB walked the dog JG was already home.
What mother would not immediately tend to her dying daughter - if she thought she had accidentally fallen?
What type of parents could carry on acting normally, not be screaming out, and cut up cake and set up a younger child to discover such a scene, when their daughter has DIED?
What mother can sit for an hour in a taxi, speaking to her daughter's killer, and not call the police and an ambulance before she gets home, to save her daughter if she is still alive or to arrest her partner if he has killed her?
JG didn't inflict the injuries but I feel by her behaviour she murdered her daughter also. I don't think a charge of cruelty and perverting the course of justice is enough. To me it's almost like she was complicit in the death of her child.
Nothing, no person, would stop me from getting to my injured or dying child and doing everything humanly possible to try to save her.
They knew it wasn't a Peppa Pig jumping accident. If it was, one of that pair if not both of them, would have called an ambulance immediately, there would be nothing to hide and nothing to stage. Even with the prior conviction.
I'm not buying that as his victim her responsibility in this is somehow diminished. If you have children you have to protect them as first priority, even if you choose not to protect yourself.
All in my opinion.
cottonweaver
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 20, 2014
- Messages
- 9,139
- Reaction score
- 31,583
I agree although in the first days of trial reporting I thought/posted that she was under his control and effectively hostage to him - those prayer letters she has written are very striking.
Coupled with all her complicit actions that both of you have listed we have this 999 tape where she is able to put on this tour de force of acting to the call handler.
Plus Gigi, you say brazen about her filming the press, I also think there is defiance. ( This fight mentality)
With her previous record , as discussed in the last page, I think they decided the whole world was against them and there is a real disdain for authority.
As for that "record" covering the issue the 16month claim ( thus part of 2009 and 2010) she was with him, they weren't broken up, so I'm not going to say she thought that deception up (or her defence of it) purely on her own.
Only reason for non-custodial was the final admission, advised no doubt by her solicitor.
I'm interested in this timing for her being home when he walks the dog just because the taxi driver was very clear that she says to BB over the phone - "You've gone where?" So he must have gone somewhere else too?
Great posts guys. There is so much that's outstanding that needs t's crossed and i's dotted.
And it seems that the specialist's are in agreement that the injuries sustained at 6/7 weeks old Ellie. Could fit the old scaring and ungrown part of the brain itself.
In fact I'm sure I've read on one of the posts from the specialists point of view that. When Ellie's first brain injuries were found. That it may affect her in later life. Depending on how the healing process goes and how much of the brain itself was damaged. Now if you look at Ellie's eyes. One seems just slightly off from the other. It may just of meant she may of needed extra learning support once she's older. But alas we'll never know. Poor sweet Ellie. She didn't deserve any of this
Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
And it seems that the specialist's are in agreement that the injuries sustained at 6/7 weeks old Ellie. Could fit the old scaring and ungrown part of the brain itself.
In fact I'm sure I've read on one of the posts from the specialists point of view that. When Ellie's first brain injuries were found. That it may affect her in later life. Depending on how the healing process goes and how much of the brain itself was damaged. Now if you look at Ellie's eyes. One seems just slightly off from the other. It may just of meant she may of needed extra learning support once she's older. But alas we'll never know. Poor sweet Ellie. She didn't deserve any of this
Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
Tortoise
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2015
- Messages
- 26,933
- Reaction score
- 137,726
defiance - that was the most striking thing I noticed about her demeanor in court. And the filming of the press outside court, that is no shrinking violet as they say.
About the dog walking, according to a neighbour's account it was approx 10 minutes before the ambulance was called, but it could have been misreported and the witness could have got the time wrong.
Yes, she did say you've done what? you've gone where? - I also wonder what that was about.
Control - yes he is a controller, that you can tell from his texts and letter to JG, and the way he seeks attention in court. I think she was submissive and controlled, but I don't expect to see it being more important than life or death situations involving a child, unless she knew she was at fault and had something to hide too, or he made her think she did. She does have defiance - that I've seen, and I can't really equate that to a person who cannot also make a stand against him.
cottonweaver
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 20, 2014
- Messages
- 9,139
- Reaction score
- 31,583
yes that's interesting :" unless she knew she was at fault and had something to hide too," and this is a very good point: "What mother can sit for an hour in a taxi, speaking to her daughter's killer, and not call the police and an ambulance before she gets home, to save her daughter if she is still alive or to arrest her partner if he has killed her? "
I never expected, that she had personally ever laid a finger on either daughter, but cunning men like him may have encouraged her to also keep crossing the line, in order that she share the guilt/wrongdoing and make it very hard for her to ever go against him, eg. with social services.
PS. Just thought , in hindsight her "you've gone where" could be her mishearing part of his possible sentence wtte " i've gone through all your drawers/the whole house..." or something pertaining to the sweep , even "I've gone on-line...... "
Gigi - the more you consider what was or was not done in the minutes after his assault eg did he attempt resus or not or just spend more time staging, the more heinous this becomes especially for sentencing. The pair have lived very strange, murky lives indeed, (possibly with few outside friends) which they have developed over years. If they are still "together", this makes a relationship of at least 10years duration.
I noticed in one of the very earliest reports in Telegraph ( 28th or 29th Oct) , a friendly neighbour who also looked after the dog, (probably Marion Cook, can't recall exactly?) said of Ellie" she hadn't had any life" and that JG also told her, on picking up the dog " Ellie fell off the bed, into the radiator" or wtte, so poss incriminating unless she says Marion got it wrong and JG was only surmising as to what happened.
(Poor granddad gave his reaction in that early account too, not going to name him, he is another victim.)
To stick with his version he has to say that he thought she was asleep until they BOTH discovered her body, it's a pity the experts can't be definitive on her dying around 12-1 rather than 2.46 onwards- a long delay without resus carries weight as an aggravating factor.
Only other incidental point -is when I looked at past addresses to check if it was really her in the old 2011 report of wrongdoing, he never appears, as if perhaps he is not a fan of the electoral roll.
There is also the curious newspaper "reader comment" at the base of one of Supernovae's first article links - not going to refer to that explicitly as it is probably baseless and thus libellous to do so but I am half- expecting him to have some type of previous in terms of a crim record that will come out later, after trial - because of the anger and psychopathy features so far.
Still no idea what the admission of perverting c of justice will be - can't just be her washing his blood spattered clothes or such like?
I never expected, that she had personally ever laid a finger on either daughter, but cunning men like him may have encouraged her to also keep crossing the line, in order that she share the guilt/wrongdoing and make it very hard for her to ever go against him, eg. with social services.
PS. Just thought , in hindsight her "you've gone where" could be her mishearing part of his possible sentence wtte " i've gone through all your drawers/the whole house..." or something pertaining to the sweep , even "I've gone on-line...... "
Gigi - the more you consider what was or was not done in the minutes after his assault eg did he attempt resus or not or just spend more time staging, the more heinous this becomes especially for sentencing. The pair have lived very strange, murky lives indeed, (possibly with few outside friends) which they have developed over years. If they are still "together", this makes a relationship of at least 10years duration.
I noticed in one of the very earliest reports in Telegraph ( 28th or 29th Oct) , a friendly neighbour who also looked after the dog, (probably Marion Cook, can't recall exactly?) said of Ellie" she hadn't had any life" and that JG also told her, on picking up the dog " Ellie fell off the bed, into the radiator" or wtte, so poss incriminating unless she says Marion got it wrong and JG was only surmising as to what happened.
(Poor granddad gave his reaction in that early account too, not going to name him, he is another victim.)
To stick with his version he has to say that he thought she was asleep until they BOTH discovered her body, it's a pity the experts can't be definitive on her dying around 12-1 rather than 2.46 onwards- a long delay without resus carries weight as an aggravating factor.
Only other incidental point -is when I looked at past addresses to check if it was really her in the old 2011 report of wrongdoing, he never appears, as if perhaps he is not a fan of the electoral roll.
There is also the curious newspaper "reader comment" at the base of one of Supernovae's first article links - not going to refer to that explicitly as it is probably baseless and thus libellous to do so but I am half- expecting him to have some type of previous in terms of a crim record that will come out later, after trial - because of the anger and psychopathy features so far.
Still no idea what the admission of perverting c of justice will be - can't just be her washing his blood spattered clothes or such like?
cottonweaver
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 20, 2014
- Messages
- 9,139
- Reaction score
- 31,583
yes that explains the argy bargy between Risdon & Scheimberg whilst he was conducting his exam of Ellie's body and he didn't want her "at my elbow"
In the middle of this SBS science battle, innocent parents get blamed and I presume the guilty may equally go free.
I'd found this one, where Scheimberg's testimony helps a young couple fight off the SBS allegation. It also shows the huge difficulty SServices & family courts have when trying to steer a course through this science battle.
http://alc.org.uk/uploads/21_Newsletter_50_Spring_13.pdf ( page 10 onwards, a landmark one)
- Status