GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

[Tortoise]

I shall have a look at your link later cotton, sounds interesting. Got to go out for a while now.

 

[cottonweaver]

To my knowledge, it depends on the question. If it's a matter that is already in evidence her barrister will address the jury and give the answer. It could be something technical, such as can the experts tell if JG's blood spots were menstrual or not. And the answer may be that this was or wasn't established from the forensic tests. But if it is a question that only JG can answer, something that they want to know and hasn't been asked, such as why did you lie about xyz, she can be recalled to the stand and the questions will, I think, be put to her by the judge.

I'm half tempted to go in tomorrow just to hear the questions. If they aren't reported in the press I shall forever wonder about it. Mmm, can I be bothered? Is anyone else going? I get the feeling these are questions for her to answer and not the barrister.

If I could go- to give you a break I would - but it would take me 6 hrs to get there!
There's the rub, it could simply be questions that could be clarified without her and then you'd feel it was a waste of your time. I couldn't "call it" - whether JG will come back tomorrow.

 

[cottonweaver]

JG couldn't explain her search for "PTSD and domestic violence", around the time of the family court proceedings. BB had been diagnosed with PTSD.

She said she did hundreds of searches around that time for brain injuries etc. QC said that doesn't explain the search. She said I can't explain it, I just did it for no particular reason. QC said so you just randomly decided to make that specific search. She said BB was getting into violent altercations when he went out. QC said that doesn't explain the domestic part. She said I can't help you, it was a long time ago.

BIBs FitzGerald is great the way he keeps on digging with his interrogation so that sometimes, as above, she is just stumped.

 

[Rayemonde]

That poor little girl.

She went from a loving home where she was nurtured and loved and in eight short months (although for her those months probably dragged on longer than her lived years) her life rapidly descended into a painful hell.

Even now, her own mommy and daddy reject her by not being truthful about her death and by not mourning her.

I have to wonder if she wasn't threatened about telling someone at school or her grandparents about her home life. I've never been abused like that, but I would think if you were raised in an abusive home you might think your life is normal, but she was with them for such a short time and she knew a different way of life. I just have to wonder why she didn't tell someone. Maybe she was too young? I don't know. I taught my daughter our phone number and how to dial 911 when she was way younger than Ellie, so I would think at her age she could have told a teacher or someone that she was hurt and scared?

I bet Butler threatened to hurt or kill her puppy if she said anything That's a common trick of abusers.

 

[theirmommy]

I just finished catching up on thread #1! Woohooooo! It took me a while but i finished it. Now to start this thread #2.

Thank you all for the warm welcome in the previous thread. I didn't understand at the time why I couldn't reply, but now I realize it was cause it was closed. I'm still a newbie to WS in terms of posting, but have been lurking for years.

This one really got to me. Poor Ellie and her lil sis. Here in the States BB & JG would be held in contempt. I don't understand how their behavior is tolerated. But as others have said, it will bite them in the a$$ with the jury. They will see right through it.

I'm not caught up yet. I haven't googled the trial because I want to catch up here first. Hopefully will be done today. Thanks again for the welcome.

 

[Renee110]

She invited FitzGerald to her flat. To see all her bloodied towels. She has lots of them everywhere apparently. I feel embarrassed for her.

Also offered to show him her legs today. They're covered with bruises all the time - she's just one of those people. If he doesn't want to see, she'll photograph them for him. And it can't be BB because he's in prison!

Prosecution said today there were 38 spots of her blood on Ellie's bedroom carpet. She said they were microscopic, he said no, they weren't. She says it was her menstrual blood. She would regularly sit with a towel around her in the girls' rooms, while they were playing, while her bath was running. That's her explanation.

Umm. I can't even think about this without feeling complete revulsion. No proper products used for menstruation? Just sitting on towels and bleeding all over them. And THEN just leaving bloody towels laying around? Her hygiene is gross! She's like an animal.

 

[Tillymint]

I was just going to say the same, her personal hygiene is terrible, not wearing appropriate protection, mopping herself on towels, it's gross.

 

[Gigi-G]

Umm. I can't even think about this without feeling complete revulsion. No proper products used for menstruation? Just sitting on towels and bleeding all over them. And THEN just leaving bloody towels laying around? Her hygiene is gross! She's like an animal.

She must have a hotels worth of towels then. Gosh I couldn't of used them even if they'd been washed after.. even sanitary products in super markets are like not even a pound for unbranded stuff. Geez gross gross woman!

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[squish]

She makes it sound like she specifically went into Ellie's room to sit on the floor and menstruate on towels!

By the way I have continued to read this thread, but my thanks have not been working. I thank posts and it seems to have worked, then the thanks disappear. I haven't been posting as much because I've been busy.

Welcome to the forum, theirmommy! 🙂

 

[cottonweaver]

It's interesting this blood issue but JG has definitely not given satisfactory answers to why there is her blood at the scene - she just made herself look, in S.London parlance, like a *advertiser censored*.

Tortoise's post the other day said

Just a bit on JG's blood trail in the house:
Ellie's bedroom floor, hallway, bathroom and edge of bath.Also on the front of the washing machine, tiled wall behind the kitchen sink and corner of bathroom cabinet.
Expirated blood, or from an object soaked with her blood being carried. Blood on the towel dumped in the bins.

On BIB , I've just looked that up and it says:

Expirated blood is blood that has passed through the trachea (windpipe) and is blown out of the mouth or nose, causing an array of small droplets....."

, there are some other signs but it is difficult to test

http://therealcsi.tumblr.com/post/22667147945/expirated-blood-spatter

In response to Gigi's q on differentiating blood origins , T also replied, I only just found this after looking the definitions up, tsk :

They said they can tell from the blood drops it was either expirated blood from her airways, or drips from something being carried with her blood on it. Menstrual blood is a different composition to blood, so I'm sure they would have been able to tell if it was.

Has she messed up with that one too ??- how can drops of menstrual blood as JG is describing cause fine droplets? ( Apols to the blokes on here, again)

It's still frustrating we don't know how old all these blood samples are and/or we don't know if JG was examined for any personal injuries on 28th so we don't know what we can discount.
These are the problems with Uk trials hey, not enough info.

ETA - edited to make it make more sense.

 

[Tortoise]

I had a theory for the two head injuries but not sure if it works. If he did something to cause the skull fracture at the front/side of Ellie's head, and then after had laid Ellie on the sofa cushion, where she may have had a nose bleed say, or vomited. He's then moved Ellie up to her bed and laid her on her pillow. Put on a dvd and asked YD to sit with her and left them there, thinking he can say it happened while they were jumping around, when he wasn't watching them. Ellie's tried to get up at some point and is dizzy or falls unconscious and has keeled over backwards like a dead weight, cracking her head on the floor and because there is already the first brain swelling/bleed and fracture her skull fractures more easily. He has then discovered Ellie when he comes back. Perhaps she or both of them had opened the wardrobe doors and had been trying to hide in the wardrobe from him because they were scared. But his accident plan now won't work with the two blows.

I don't know if the impact at the back of Ellie's skull would have been harder if she was unconscious, but it could explain her not being able to break her fall.

 

[Tortoise]

Second thoughts, don't know though. If she fainted wouldn't she have gone down collapsing - knees first and arms and shoulders hitting the floor before head, rather than keeling over like a rigid board.

 

[Gigi-G]

I had a theory for the two head injuries but not sure if it works. If he did something to cause the skull fracture at the front/side of Ellie's head, and then after had laid Ellie on the sofa cushion, where she may have had a nose bleed say, or vomited. He's then moved Ellie up to her bed and laid her on her pillow. Put on a dvd and asked YD to sit with her and left them there, thinking he can say it happened while they were jumping around, when he wasn't watching them. Ellie's tried to get up at some point and is dizzy or falls unconscious and has keeled over backwards like a dead weight, cracking her head on the floor and because there is already the first brain swelling/bleed and fracture her skull fractures more easily. He has then discovered Ellie when he comes back. Perhaps she or both of them had opened the wardrobe doors and had been trying to hide in the wardrobe from him because they were scared. But his accident plan now won't work with the two blows.

I don't know if the impact at the back of Ellie's skull would have been harder if she was unconscious, but it could explain her not being able to break her fall.

Either way. It would be an extreme blow to blow the back of her skull to smithereens. The lack of a weapon found. The lack of evidence found on a wall or concrete floor even some Cerebral fluid. But then again given the fact that there's blood cast off on walls tiles and whatnot in their home.
I wouldn't be surprised if it happened else where. On the stairs maybe. And Ellie was PLACED in her room led down by her bed/chair to make it look like a fall.
Would be a reason for JG to have Blood on her shirt. Hence why it was hurriedly washed.

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[Supernovae]

RE: the conversation about blood and hygeine, there's every chance this is just more lies from her. I think there's also an element of her trying to embarrass people to throw them off and avoid questioning (which hasn't worked). Some of the exchanges with FitzGerald, related by Tortoise, illustrate this pretty well.

 

[cottonweaver]

I had a theory for the two head injuries but not sure if it works. If he did something to cause the skull fracture at the front/side of Ellie's head, and then after had laid Ellie on the sofa cushion, where she may have had a nose bleed say, or vomited. He's then moved Ellie up to her bed and laid her on her pillow. Put on a dvd and asked YD to sit with her and left them there, thinking he can say it happened while they were jumping around, when he wasn't watching them. Ellie's tried to get up at some point and is dizzy or falls unconscious and has keeled over backwards like a dead weight, cracking her head on the floor and because there is already the first brain swelling/bleed and fracture her skull fractures more easily. He has then discovered Ellie when he comes back. Perhaps she or both of them had opened the wardrobe doors and had been trying to hide in the wardrobe from him because they were scared. But his accident plan now won't work with the two blows.

I don't know if the impact at the back of Ellie's skull would have been harder if she was unconscious, but it could explain her not being able to break her fall.

I think it's very hard but it 's definitely worth trying to fathom how he did it.
I'm just putting this back up so it's easier for everyone to join in if they want to

"Wet dilute blood from Ellie Butler had been deposited onto the pillow, ... E Blood on a sofa cushion in the living room was also found"( forensics as reported newspaper)
1. She's been moved ( living room to bedroom at least ) - forensics prove that. So why didn't Brown ask that in the cross? Is it just cause it doesn't matter to CPS, they have enough "staging info"??? IDK.
1a. She's been moved- but forensics can't prove. Bizarre - why can't forensics prove blood on a sofa c is freshly spilt? ( I can see why diluted on a pillow could be harder) V. frustrating.

2. So E is moved upstairs after assault/skull impact 1. ( We still have no weapon and no eg. wall surface impact signs cause they have been cleaned off by BB perhaps)
BB puts her on the bed. Somehow she has to fall off the bed to create next skull impact - ok she is a dead weight but is it a far enough fall to get that impact ?
Correct me if wrong here but Def expert Dr van E thought it was one skull impact only and that one impact needed a fall of 50"( he measured chair plus Ellie) and even then it was very rare to get that kind of injury from 50 ".

3 .I just feel the wardrobe doors are poss part of BB JG staging but equally they may just be coincidental - they had been open since night before even.
4. TBH I 'm not sure his accident BS would have worked even if there was one blow - because of the force of either of those blows was classed as "catastrophic"

One thing is for sure - he/they did a big clean up of a wall or a kitchen floor or something in the house used as a weapon. ( That awful case you linked to, today it's been revealed the boyf used a household chair to kill the baby boy. )
It's somewhat possible there is an alternative portable weapon and he went out before JG got home to deposit that in afar away bin etc - ok he was never witnessed/maybe no CCTV on estate?.

Basically IDK at all - I'd have to look at van E again and the skull stuff and even then IDK if I'd be any the wiser!

ETA - van E knows sweet F.A. about 2 impacts so he couldn't possibly opine on 2 anyway . See next post on Van E with link.

 

[cottonweaver]

RE: the conversation about blood and hygeine, there's every chance this is just more lies from her. I think there's also an element of her trying to embarrass people to throw them off and avoid questioning (which hasn't worked). Some of the exchanges with FitzGerald, related by Tortoise, illustrate this pretty well.

Totally agree with you and on the underlined she has done this a few times already.
I'll show you my legs, look at my phone photos of my bruises.
Come look at my dirty towels in my house
The " kneed in the *advertiser censored* & pussy " text - in her Evidence in Chief she baulked at having to explain it , her sex life as she didn't expect qs on private matters.

 

[cottonweaver]

Just looked at Drs van E & Julie Mack again, Defe experts.

Seems pretty clear that they have collaborated re the 1 skull impact testimony. ( Common but improper) ie.
- he conveniently says he has not seen all the photos so he can't give an expert opinion on a second skull impact as he hasn't seen evidence. yeah right.
- she says "She dismissed an earlier expert witness suggestion Ellie suffered more than one impact, saying: "I don't think it is a safe conclusion to make"."

So they dovetail nicely don't they?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36341107

"He said that taking into account the height of the chair of 10.6 ins (27cms) and Ellie's height of under 60ins (1.52m), there was a distance of some 50ins (1.27m)."

more at link. NB. it's still probably 1:1 mill, fatal death from a chair fall in 6 yr old ( see thread 1 for 20th may)

How bloody convenient! His colleague was struck off recently - he doesn't want to get into trouble and not be able to earn in British courts, so just say he has not seen them. why would he not ask to see them as he has to give an expert opinion on it. If Judge W directs jury to disregard his evidence - cool, that'll do.

 

[Tortoise]

I think it's very hard but it 's definitely worth trying to fathom how he did it.
I'm just putting this back up so it's easier for everyone to join in if they want to

"Wet dilute blood from Ellie Butler had been deposited onto the pillow, ... E Blood on a sofa cushion in the living room was also found"( forensics as reported newspaper)
1. She's been moved ( living room to bedroom at least ) - forensics prove that. So why didn't Brown ask that in the cross? Is it just cause it doesn't matter to CPS, they have enough "staging info"??? IDK.
1a. She's been moved- but forensics can't prove. Bizarre - why can't forensics prove blood on a sofa c is freshly spilt? ( I can see why diluted on a pillow could be harder) V. frustrating.

2. So E is moved upstairs after assault/skull impact 1. ( We still have no weapon and no eg. wall surface impact signs cause they have been cleaned off by BB perhaps)
BB puts her on the bed. Somehow she has to fall off the bed to create next skull impact - ok she is a dead weight but is it a far enough fall to get that impact ?
Correct me if wrong here but Def expert Dr van E thought it was one skull impact only and that one impact needed a fall of 50"( he measured chair plus Ellie) and even then it was very rare to get that kind of injury from 50 ".

3 .I just feel the wardrobe doors are poss part of BB JG staging but equally they may just be coincidental - they had been open since night before even.
4. TBH I 'm not sure his accident BS would have worked even if there was one blow - because of the force of both those blows was classed as "catastrophic"

One thing is for sure - he/they did a big clean up of a wall or a kitchen floor or something in the house used as a weapon. ( That awful case you linked to, today it's been revealed the boyf used a household chair to kill the baby boy.
It's somewhat possible there is a diff portable weapon and he went out Before JG got home to deposit that - ok he was never witnessed/maybe no CCTV on estate?.

Basically IDK at all - I'd have to look at van E again and the skull stuff and even then IDK if I'd be any the wiser!

Van E couldn't form an opinion on whether there was a 2nd impact because his pictures weren't clear enough. But I don't think that's strictly his field of expertise either.

Could have happened outside on their patio?

Don't think there is cctv, they relied on neighbours' evidence for the trip to the rubbish bin and dog walk.

 

[Tortoise]

Just looked at Drs van E & Julie Mack again, Defe experts.

Seems pretty clear that they have collaborated re the 1 skull impact testimony. ( Common but improper) ie.
- he conveniently says he has not seen all the photos so he can't give an expert opinion on a second skull impact as he hasn't seen evidence. yeah right.
- she says "She dismissed an earlier expert witness suggestion Ellie suffered more than one impact, saying: "I don't think it is a safe conclusion to make"."

So they dovetail nicely don't they?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36341107


more at link. NB. it's still probably 1:1 mill, fatal death from a chair fall in 6 yr old ( see thread 1 for 20th may)

How bloody convenient! His colleague was struck off recently - he doesn't want to get into trouble and not be able to earn in British courts, so just say he has not seen them. why would he not ask to see them as he has to give an expert opinion on it. If Judge W directs jury to disregard his evidence - cool, that'll do.

He asked for clearer pictures a year ago for trial, but they didn't send any.

 

[cottonweaver]

He asked for clearer pictures a year ago for trial, but they didn't send any.

Ok- fair enough - that's an own goal on the Pros side isn't it! Apols Mr Van E.

PS do you know why she used the Devon excuse twice. I wasn't aware she had ( passed me by, despite all the posts)

25th and morning of 28th. I always thought it was just 28th.


"And on October 25, she had stayed at home to look after her child as she claimed her partner's father in Devon was very ill."
http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/ne...been_an_accident__father_s_murder_trial_told/

28th
Ms Bernstein said Gray had come into work and told her her partner was down in Cornwall, looking after his ill father, and that Ellie was being looked after by her godfather