GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

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"but if they find it is JG who did it I doubt any further action will be taken,"
I would love if it was proved to be JG (who else??), that she would get another maximum term of 36 months
 
Tortoise - thanks for finding and posting the links re BB`s violent background. I was beginning to think I had dreamt it!
 
Tortoise - thanks for finding and posting the links re BB`s violent background. I was beginning to think I had dreamt it!

Still no mention of the child at school whose arm he bit, although there was reference to his step-father having to go to school to sort out problems.

BTW, I noticed you may be having difficulty knowing how to quote posts you are replying to. In the bottom right corner of the post there is a little icon that says "Reply with Quote". If you click on that, it puts that post in the reply box, and then you scroll down past it and add your reply after the end quote/bracket ].

Caught up on the washing and shopping yet? I bet that jury are relieved it's over now.
 
Neteditor, Prime S, Looroll - thanks for the hugs and understanding and sorry if you have had the same horrific parenting and dysfunctional family experience. I went today to an amazing group - it`s fairly new and the only group I know that exists which confronts, and offers support for adult children who have become estranged from their families due to PDs within the family and the chaos and destruction that ensues. If you are interested, PM me and I will send you the details. It`s very well run and a bunch of great people who attend and share. Today`s session was 4 hours and I took away so much from it. It was set up by a journalist who is herself estranged from her whole family.
Michelle *advertiser censored*
 
Lol - Tortoise - you have a keen eye indeed!!
Just about caught up with the washing - just got to catch up with the ironing, shopping, phone calls, garden and hundreds of other mundane but necessary tasks. Tough - they`ll have to wait! Next two weeks more or less promised to my friend who is putting on end of year school concert and having a minor collapse with the stress of it! So glad I`m out of the classroom!
 
I think the article I read in the Express was slightly different because it mentioned the child whose arm he bit (all the way up apparently), and kicked and punched her, but n mention of BB`s brother (or can`t recall it being mentioned).
 
Judge was very quick indeed to come back with sentencing remarks just over an hour after verdicts.

I think that shows how confident he was of a conviction - had it already prepared in draft!
 
I am finding this whole co-dependency thing between them morbidly fascinating.
He "hates" her but when she doesn`t answer his calls when she is in hospital (with the abortion or whatever it was), he texts her begging her to answer his calls. When his ex wanted to leave him, he would not allow her to. He wrote in a letter to JG that he`d be "lost without her". He held her hand desperately, kissing it over and over again while the judge was sentencing him. One minute a raging bully, the next a blubbering little boy. No matter how much he raged that he was leaving, sick of her, she was making him unhappy etc he would have collapsed if she had walked away - not just from a "How dare you walk away from me" stance, but also because he would collapse without her.

On another note - there seems to be confusion over abortions and miscarriages she had. When she was in hospital, she talked about a "F...ed abortion" and her "dead baby still inside her". This doesn`t make sense if it was a proper abortion, done in hospital. I wondered if he`d caused it in the same way as he`d tried to make his ex lose the baby she was carrying?
 
Hi Michelle, thanks for the welcome :)

Court is usually quite intimidating, even as a reporter in there every day! Most people are well behaved. Emotion can run high though for family etc must be hard to keep a lid on that.

I'm not sure what you mean about the star not being around?

However, I can answer the next bit. Firstly, none of the younger child's evidence was before the court that I can recall. I only knew there was one because of bad cropping of the family photo and mentions here. There may have been an unreportable direction from the judge not to identify her. None of her video evidence was put before the jury. That video was made and uploaded to influence the jury and persuade them the younger child had witnessed Ellie jumping and banging her head (ie exactly BB's defence).

Attempting to influence the outcome of a trial is a criminal offence of contempt of court. If the jury had seen that video and it swayed their decision and acquitted BB, he likely couldn't be retried and he'd have walked free. It's the same offence if you find out where the jury live and co-erce, bribe or threaten them into a decision. It's the same offence if you stand up in the public gallery and call the judge rude names :D

The 2014 judgment was made in the family court, they urgently needed to decide if the younger child should be taken into care for her own safety. That decision couldn't wait for the criminal proceedings to end. The burden of proof there is lower than in a criminal court. ie the judge alone can consider the facts and make a decision based on probability, whereas in a criminal trial a 12-person jury must hear all the evidence and (usually unanimously) decide "beyond a reasonable doubt" guilt or innocence.

Criminal courts decide if a defendant should be remanded. After being charged with an offence, you are brought before the next available sitting of the magistrates court (so if you punch someone on Friday night down the pub you're going to be in a cell all weekend waiting for court to open on Monday!). In serious charges like murder, the defendant is almost always remanded in custody by the magistrates straight away. Serious offences are always then sent to the crown court (or high court in very serious like murder) to be heard by a judge and jury.

An appeal court is just judges, no jury, and they can decide to quash a conviction which then leaves the crown prosecution service to decide whether to prosecute the person again.

If there's a proper lawyer here who spots errors in my blatherings please say :) I might not have it all completely right :)

Have now read and digested and understand a few of the gaps I was missing. Learning all the time. Thank you for explaining to me so clearly.

Michelle xx

P.S. Tortoise - note the quotes - :dance: hope you are impressed!!!
 
"It's HIGHLY unusual for a jury to hear of previous convictions"

Neteditor/Jog - that was my understanding re previous convictions. However I have learnt that if the previous convictions were similar to what the defendant is now on trial for then they can be brought up. Pretty much what you said Jog.
Im guessing that becuz BB had such a violent past. That he somehow. Always managed to charm himself out of. Even the armed robbery he onky served part sentence. It was clear from his criminal record that violence and intimidation was indicative of his moral behaviour. He was very much a Jekyll and Hyde character. Albeit he can change within a heartbeat or a moment or breath. Into a foam spitting black eyed venomous tongued animal. And Judge Wilkie would of had all that information at his hands. BB had to go down. He had to terminate his despicable rage. And the only way Judge Wilkie saw fit was to sentence him for the long haul. With hope he might never walk the streets again!

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Im not a survivor of parents with a PD. Well yes i have but our family is odd. When my mom fell preg with me it was in the flower power era (yessss im a fossil!) And generally as our fam were devout christians church every week etc.
It was not good to bring on the fam. Especially as it was a married (important) man from the area.
Many skeletons fell outta my closet i can tell you. Anyways i was born prem spent weeks in nicu. And I was put up for adoption. At 6 weeks to which my grandpa n grandma adopted me. Life was pretty wierd growing up. I have other siblings. And told i was one of twins. A boy. Ive found my other sister. Shes in hong kong. But no brother.
My birth mom died at 44. Im older than her now. And my 'mom' who brought me up died in 2009. Grampa in 1977.
She took with her the name of my dad. My adopted brother (cousin genetically speaking) said he knew who it was but needed moms permission to tell. We dont talk these days lots of hate eeked out over the time my mom was ill. He was her executor of her will. N not once was my name brought up as living next of kin. Broke my heart. So as he now has dementia i wont ever know. His daughter keeps asking but he talks over it.. ahh such is life.

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Me.....again!
If BB is in Belmarsh, then judging by the likeminded company that was thrust upon him last time - which he complained about - he`ll have a new mate this time round - the notorious Richard Huckle. Gotta love it :jail:
 
Gosh Gi-Gi very complex indeed. Oh, the webs we weave.....
Sorry to hear that. Must have been/be difficult for you.
Hugs
Michelle xx
 
Gosh Gi-Gi very complex indeed. Oh, the webs we weave.....
Sorry to hear that. Must have been/be difficult for you.
Hugs
Michelle xx
Ive grown up knowing most of it. But the midwife who delivered me asked me how my brother was.... i was huh? Lol. She swore it was i that had the twin as we were early. The other 2 were late. :/
Isnt it just a tangled web we weave. Altho ive added to it lol. 5 children 2 from first marriage 3 from second marriage. They all know about each other my relationship with the 2 eldest isnt brilliant cuz their dad is a barsteward basically. Omg i cannot spell at all this last week. Or type. Im so glad of auto correct. (For a change)

He was in Belmarsh im assuming he didnt move 'home' lol
Well he has a few nice people in there with him 😉

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Belmarsh - Britain's toughest prison

Belmarsh prison opened in 1991 and was the first adult prison to be built in London since 1874. Its 800 inmates are housed within a 60-acre site.

The prison is made up of four three-storey blocks with three spurs extending from a central hub. Each spur contains 42 single and double cells with in-cell sanitation.

The all-male prison is split into five wings:

House block one holds prisoners serving long-term sentences

House block two holds prisoners serving short-term sentences and those on remand.

House block three holds new arrivals and includes a dedicated first night centre.

House block four holds prisoners undergoing detoxification, and vulnerable prisoners.

High security unit (HSU) holds prisoners assessed as requiring a high level of security or /care

Source: Ministry of Justice

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Belmarsh's most notorious prisoners

Abu Hamza

Extremist cleric who lost his hands in an explosion. On remand pending extradition request from the US.

Waheed Zaman

A relatively new arrival to Belmarsh, he was convicted of plotting to bomb a transatlantic flight.



Curtis Warren

One of Britain's most dangerous gangsters, Warren is currently serving 13 years for smuggling drugs.

Charles Bronson

Dubbed Britain's most violent prisoner, Bronson once had an entire wing of Belmarsh HSU to himself.

Ian Huntley

The Soham murderer was held in Belmarsh's high security unit before his trial and conviction in 2005.

Kenneth Noye

Road rage killer who fled to Spain after stabbing Stephen Cameron, 21, in Swanley, Kent, in 1996.

Ronnie Biggs

Spent 36 years on the run and then eight in Belmarsh. Released last summer on compassionate grounds.

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Very sorry for not quoting everyone here, only got a brief amount of browsing time this morning :)

I think the "prior convictions" in evidence law may have changed since I was a reporter. I know I covered a few cases where the jury found out after acquittal that the defendant had previous for similar offences and you could see them visibly sickened that they got the *wrong* verdict.

The judge does prepare his judgment in advance. I've seen them sentence immediately after conviction with no time to go away and prepare, especially for murder where the sentence is always life.

The press also prepares in advance - one story for an acquittal and another for guilty, just phone the boss and tell them which one to run after the verdict, throw in some of the judge's sentencing comments and away it goes.

Gigi sending you massive hugs. Even knowing all your life doesn't necessarily make it easier to deal with. I won't share my story here, I don't want to look like I'm being competitive on the bad childhood stories :D Just know I understand more than you might imagine. Being an undiagnosed Asperger's probably didn't help my case as a kid, us fossils didn't get diagnoses back then we got the strap!

Giant hugs to all the strong wonderful ladies here *advertiser censored*
 
Very sorry for not quoting everyone here, only got a brief amount of browsing time this morning :)

I think the "prior convictions" in evidence law may have changed since I was a reporter. I know I covered a few cases where the jury found out after acquittal that the defendant had previous for similar offences and you could see them visibly sickened that they got the *wrong* verdict.

The judge does prepare his judgment in advance. I've seen them sentence immediately after conviction with no time to go away and prepare, especially for murder where the sentence is always life.

The press also prepares in advance - one story for an acquittal and another for guilty, just phone the boss and tell them which one to run after the verdict, throw in some of the judge's sentencing comments and away it goes.

Gigi sending you massive hugs. Even knowing all your life doesn't necessarily make it easier to deal with. I won't share my story here, I don't want to look like I'm being competitive on the bad childhood stories :D Just know I understand more than you might imagine. Being an undiagnosed Asperger's probably didn't help my case as a kid, us fossils didn't get diagnoses back then we got the strap!

Giant hugs to all the strong wonderful ladies here *advertiser censored*
Thanks for the heads up on the evidence malarkey. Its so much better when a Judge can review the 'accused's' criminal history. Okay if its not relevant to the case then fine. If the accused has a custodial then hopefully they can get 'help' against reoffending whilst there. If not same scenario but on civvy street.
But when the case has more incidents of the same then there's obviously an issue that needs dealing with. Becuz it a good likelihood be a trait siding on PD's.

Awhhh *hugs* go out to you neteditor. And yes ADHD Aspergers OCD were not named back in the day. It was a cane ruler slipper or belt. I dont think i turned out too bad tbh. As everyone here has so much strength and resilience. And beautiful souls abound here. My heart goes out to all here who have.... not so much suffered as different generations are reared differently. But peace love and light goes out to you all. Now i hope youve all bought your Haynes Manuals yes the do then on men women and i think parenting!
Too much pain today. Need the doctor to inject something so might be sleepy later.. have a blissful day.. ***hugs***


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Hope you get some good pain relief and rest, Gigi hugs x
 

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