GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

[Gigi-G]

The ex journalist inside me crackled...



The jury did NOT hear about those convictions, the judge ruled her evidence inadmissible as reported here:



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...eat-metal-pole-convicted-strangling-2005.html

I guess the judge decided that so he couldn't be pulled up on trying to sway the Jury. As it would prove he could initiate and carry out volcanic rage towards an adult.
But could he to a child. Yet his own child?
The Judge had to tread so carefully. That it didnt give BB or JG any reason to give doubt on the case to yet again. Overturn it. Thru lack of evidence. Etc etc etc
I think the Judge knew all about BBs antics and prior history. Not much follows our lives these days without a valid log kept of it. So the account from the family dog to the younger brother. Will have been in his mind. And to secure a sentence for BB he chose to lead as he did.

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[neteditor]

Those convictions were reported to the jury and he was cross-examined on the circumstances of the assaults on her.

Every report I can find says her evidence was not heard by the jury after the judge ruled it would be too disruptive. It does appear to have been subject to legal argument in the courtroom with the jury absent. In these circumstances, the press are automatically barred from reporting anything said in court that the jury has not heard (for obvious reasons) until after the trial ends. Were you in court when this evidence was discussed? I'd be interested to know more about it if so.

 

[Tortoise]

Every report I can find says her evidence was not heard by the jury after the judge ruled it would be too disruptive. It does appear to have been subject to legal argument in the courtroom with the jury absent. In these circumstances, the press are automatically barred from reporting anything said in court that the jury has not heard (for obvious reasons) until after the trial ends. Were you in court when this evidence was discussed? I'd be interested to know more about it if so.

After Ellie died Hannah Hillman gave a statement to police. She was unwilling to testify initially but then changed her mind as the trial was underway. The judge disallowed her evidence and did not allow her to testify. But his convictions were put to the jury and he was cross-examined on the circumstances of those convictions.

Yes I was in court, if I can find my post from that day I'll put up a link to it for you.

 

[neteditor]

After Ellie died Hannah Hillman gave a statement to police. She was unwilling to testify initially but then changed her mind as the trial was underway. The judge disallowed her evidence and did not allow her to testify. But his convictions were put to the jury and he was cross-examined on the circumstances of those convictions.

Yes I was in court, if I can find my post from that day I'll put up a link to it for you.

Thanks v much would appreciate that, or even if you can remember the specific day I can search the internets for it. Will start looking at his evidence dates.

It's HIGHLY unusual for a jury to hear of previous convictions. And if they did hear it, it could very well give him a good ground for appeal.

ETA: I think his previous for hitting strangers / adults out and about (ie not domestically) was put before the court, is that what you're thinking of Tortoise? I'm focusing just on the HH evidence in my thoughts here. They were showing the jury he was capable of violence but avoiding directing them to specifically be capable of domestic violence.

 

[jog]

Thanks v much would appreciate that, or even if you can remember the specific day I can search the internets for it. Will start looking at his evidence dates.

It's HIGHLY unusual for a jury to hear of previous convictions. And if they did hear it, it could very well give him a good ground for appeal.

This would not be a ground for appeal in all probability. The prosecution are entitled now to make an application for the defendants bad character to be adduced. There is a test that needs to be applied to admit this and the convictions need to be relevant. That would be why the assaults went in front of the jury but the convictions he had for robbery and witness intimidation and others were not before the jury as far as I am aware and only came out after conviction. It should be fine. The only grounds for appeal would be if the judge has erred in law and /or in. his summing up to the jury . He cannot appeal just because he doesn't like the juries decision . Re JG she has pleaded to perverting so could only appeal against the sentence for this and the conviction for child cruelty

 

[Tortoise]

Thanks v much would appreciate that, or even if you can remember the specific day I can search the internets for it. Will start looking at his evidence dates.

It's HIGHLY unusual for a jury to hear of previous convictions. And if they did hear it, it could very well give him a good ground for appeal.

ETA: I think his previous for hitting strangers / adults out and about (ie not domestically) was put before the court, is that what you're thinking of Tortoise? I'm focusing just on the HH evidence in my thoughts here. They were showing the jury he was capable of violence but avoiding directing them to specifically be capable of domestic violence.

Lets see if this link works - if not it's post #913 in first thread. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...of-daughter-Ellie-(6)&p=12568851#post12568851

 

[neteditor]

This would not be a ground for appeal in all probability. The prosecution are entitled now to make an application for the defendants bad character to be adduced. There is a test that needs to be applied to admit this and the convictions need to be relevant. That would be why the assaults went in front of the jury but the convictions he had for robbery and witness intimidation and others were not before the jury as far as I am aware and only came out after conviction. It should be fine. The only grounds for appeal would be if the judge has erred in law and /or in. his summing up to the jury . He cannot appeal just because he doesn't like the juries decision . Re JG she has pleaded to perverting so could only appeal against the sentence for this and the conviction for child cruelty

Thanks for the clarity on this. I still think the HH evidence was not heard though?

 

[Tortoise]

Thanks for the clarity on this. I still think the HH evidence was not heard though?

I've already explained this? The conviction was heard and examined while I was there.

 

[neteditor]

I've already explained this? The conviction was heard and examined while I was there.

Apologies, I am not doubting you, just trying to examine if there are grounds for appeal there.

 

[looroll]

Michelle - my 'mother' has NPD! *hugs* fellow survivor. The constant mind games, the abuse, the rages, the delusions/secrets of the disordered which we must uphold or fear the consequences, the 'insanity' that only the family is privy to, OMG!

Ellie 'knew' her parents, particularly BB ( the 'hero' in his own movie, everyone is an object to be used, abused and discarded), not as loving, caring people but as 'evil', there's no peace, no harmony, chaos rules, the ever changing rules, even a frown or smile can send these 'nuts' into a rage, she couldn't win! It breaks my heart that no one listened to her. Ellie had a way out as a baby after enduring unspeakable violence, yet the courts let her down and returned her to the 'saintly' father, they fell for the narc's antics AGAIN!!! :cry: JMO

I too suffered childhood with a 'Mother' with NPD so sympathy and hugs from me, Louise xx

 

[neteditor]

@PrimeSuspect @looroll

It's bloody frightening how many of us had mothers like that. And how you put "mother" in quotes which is how I normally refer to both of the useless efforts I had. My sympathies and kind wishes to you and all survivors.

 

[looroll]

So BB has another child somewhere? I'm confused, did HH lose the baby or not? x

 

[Tortoise]

So BB has another child somewhere? I'm confused, did HH lose the baby or not? x

It's not very clear is it. I'm reading between the lines that this child was never born, only because of her references to the baby being killed.

 

[JerricaBenton]

I am wondering if it was born, but with significant injuries caused in the womb

 

[Gigi-G]

I am wondering if it was born, but with significant injuries caused in the womb

To me it sounds like the baby was born. But maybe kept out of things for anonymity. I don't think I'd like BB questioning dna on my baby..would you? And i cant say i blame the mom either for doing it.

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[Gigi-G]

This says the baby survived... but this isnt 'The first baby...' at the begining she mention "our first baby".
Then towards the end of the interview. HH states this ....
She said: “He tried to give me a kiss and a cuddle but I said no. There wasn’t even an argument, he just went hell for leather on me.

“He hit my face and head a number of times and I just fell to the floor. He then started kicking me everywhere — my head, my belly.

“It took me weeks to recover. My aunt told him I had lost the baby. He could never have been a dad to that child.”

In fact the baby survived the attack.

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[looroll]

This says the baby survived... but this isnt 'The first baby...' at the begining she mention "our first baby".
Then towards the end of the interview. HH states this ....
She said: “He tried to give me a kiss and a cuddle but I said no. There wasn’t even an argument, he just went hell for leather on me.

“He hit my face and head a number of times and I just fell to the floor. He then started kicking me everywhere — my head, my belly.

“It took me weeks to recover. My aunt told him I had lost the baby. He could never have been a dad to that child.”

In fact the baby survived the attack.

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So BB didn't know he had another child then?

 

[Gigi-G]

So BB didn't know he had another child then?

Im assuming no. Her aunt told him she lost it.

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[Gigi-G]

Im assuming no. Her aunt told him she lost it.

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I know ppl will say he has a right to know blah blah blah.
But maybe she adopted the baby out. I really dont know. Altho ive not gone off googling either.

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[michelle230]

"It's HIGHLY unusual for a jury to hear of previous convictions"

Neteditor/Jog - that was my understanding re previous convictions. However I have learnt that if the previous convictions were similar to what the defendant is now on trial for then they can be brought up. Pretty much what you said Jog.