GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

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Does anyone know if Ellie's sibling has been adopted or met her family; I notice in the 2014 judgement that her grandparents hadn't had contact. I just wondered if this has changed over time or if she has been adopted? I am hoping she has such much needed stability and love.
 
Does anyone know if Ellie's sibling has been adopted or met her family; I notice in the 2014 judgement that her grandparents hadn't had contact. I just wondered if this has changed over time or if she has been adopted? I am hoping she has such much needed stability and love.
I'm led to believe this is so.

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This may be random but I did wonder from the start how were the text messages found. Where they kept on their phones or were the deleted but recovered? Does it seem possible without their evidence it would have been harder to convict?

Very good point, along with the 11 visits allowed while both children were in care and I think I read a total of 6 were kept.

May be controversial but these two are a good example of people who should be sterilised :notgood:
Again I am led to believe that both phones were examined whereas BB had time to delete alot on his. JG didnt however. Plus the Service Providers can actually access data info. And the Police have many ways of extracting even deleted data. Im positive this was covered earlier on in the Trial. Probably on Thread 1 or begining Thread 2. Sorry I cant be more helpful.

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I read along with all the papers re The published Family Court findings. That at the time this was published BB nor JG had submitted a Appeal. Even tho as the papers state. That BB was very vocal on launching an Appeal at his Trial. Nothing as yet had been forthcoming.
Can anyone Verify this at all plz? Jog. Legally Bland. Michelle. Tortoise. Cottonweaver. Anyone? 🤗

Thanks in advance. Sorry not been around much. 1 I detest new Tapatalk app. N 2 Im having alot of pain in my hands.. cant grip with one. And much pain n lumps in both. Been told off by doc for not coming in sooner. Going for mri to confirm is rheumatoid arth. Gosh i only thought elderly got that 😨

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I read along with all the papers re The published Family Court findings. That at the time this was published BB nor JG had submitted a Appeal. Even tho as the papers state. That BB was very vocal on launching an Appeal at his Trial. Nothing as yet had been forthcoming.
Can anyone Verify this at all plz? Jog. Legally Bland. Michelle. Tortoise. Cottonweaver. Anyone? 珞

Thanks in advance. Sorry not been around much. 1 I detest new Tapatalk app. N 2 Im having alot of pain in my hands.. cant grip with one. And much pain n lumps in both. Been told off by doc for not coming in sooner. Going for mri to confirm is rheumatoid arth. Gosh i only thought elderly got that 

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13th July was the date he lodged an appeal Gigi. How does that time with the report? I'll have to check.

I have RA. There are many types Gigi. Mine first struck when I was 24,
 
Yes, he was convicted on 21st June, Pauffley made her order banning publication of the King judgement on 22nd June, the very next day.

So it was before he appealed.
 
I tried so hard to keep away from this thread, as I have just completed months of therapy due to my daughter being shaken and thrown again the wall at 6 weeks of age. But, i am feeling much better and if I can, try and help with some of the court proceedings and crimnal trial that i encountered. I may be able to fathom some of the CPS proceedings. This case is so close to my heart, my daughter is a survivor and in my care. But, it took me a very long terrible year to get her back. It seems to me that this judges huge error cost this little girl her life. Why? I do not know. She should never have been returned to her parents. The only problem is with the UK is SBS is such a taboo subject and one that alot of the country does not understand. There is alot of if, buts and maybes. Mine is slightly different as her perp admitted the truth even though he pled non guilty at his trial. But, I have some friends who have had no justice and the time served is a joke. My daughters attacker got 6 months in prison for destroying the life she had. Anyway, I hope finally he stays behind bars, where he should have been in the first place.
 
The grandfather of murdered Ellie Butler hit out last night at the injustice that allowed his daughter's killer partner to be awarded £2million in legal aid.

The figures were obtained by the Daily Mail under Freedom of Information laws and reveal that in total the pair were handed £1,449,899 over 15 years.
This figure included £1,185,285 in 'civil representation', which includes cases at the Family Court. Of this, £223,266 paid for Gray's legal team during the fateful four-month hearing that led to the return of Ellie. Butler's final bill is yet to be submitted.
Other cases during his criminal career included benefits fraud, violence, attempted robbery and witness intimidation.
The bill could rise by at least another £500,000 – as it does not include the cost of the long-running trial that finally brought Butler and Gray to justice. Proceedings were repeatedly delayed as the killer sacked two legal teams amid violent outbursts towards his barristers and judges.

And Butler, who has been sentenced to a serve a minimum of 23 years, has also threatened to take his conviction to the Court of Appeal, claiming key evidence was never shown to the jury, which will incur further cost to taxpayers.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...dy-little-girl-went-murder.html#ixzz4GUoPfqBg

The video?
 
I see, the Mail are using this case as a peg for an off the rack legal aid story:

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2016/aug/06/anger-over-legal-aid-bill-for-ellie-butlers-parents

Ironically the people most likely to suffer from tighter legal aid conditions are people like Ellie's grandparents rather than her parents- see the quote from the Ministry of Justice at the bottom of the article.

They've tallied up all the legal aid bills over 15 years, so it's worth reminding people of what the Mail were saying less than 4 years ago:

http://nojusticeinthejudicialsystem.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/first-christmas-with-his-girls-for.html
 
I see, the Mail are using this case as a peg for an off the rack legal aid story:

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2016/aug/06/anger-over-legal-aid-bill-for-ellie-butlers-parents

Ironically the people most likely to suffer from tighter legal aid conditions are people like Ellie's grandparents rather than her parents- see the quote from the Ministry of Justice at the bottom of the article.

They've tallied up all the legal aid bills over 15 years, so it's worth reminding people of what the Mail were saying less than 4 years ago:

http://nojusticeinthejudicialsystem.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/first-christmas-with-his-girls-for.html

Add to this the cost of keeping JG segregated with wardens with her the whole time which is still happening. In my view she should be left to get on with it and fend for herself without protection as her poor children had to! Having read further detail from grandad you do just wonder as she was at the end of her tether , whether if Ellie had not been killed whether she would have just given up and let grandparents have her although I don't know what would have happened then to her sibling . I totally understand the grandparents point of view re the sibling but she will have huge issues when older that she was not wanted by anyone when Ellie was. I get their position as they wouldn't want to take her on and then several years later have her taken back possibly like the Ellie scenario but I do think the poor thing will want those answers. I say sibling rather than the name for obvious reasons . If I hear any further info re JG and BB I will happily post this if people want to know or can message individually. I was on a prison visit recently close to the venue where it happened and saw the estate and felt rather uneasy about it and then thought about how JG andBB carried on living there after Ellie died there and it really just summed it up for me about how they really are! Cold calculating and totally lacking any real form of paternal/ maternal instinct for their children!
 
Add to this the cost of keeping JG segregated with wardens with her the whole time which is still happening. In my view she should be left to get on with it and fend for herself without protection as her poor children had to! Having read further detail from grandad you do just wonder as she was at the end of her tether , whether if Ellie had not been killed whether she would have just given up and let grandparents have her although I don't know what would have happened then to her sibling . I totally understand the grandparents point of view re the sibling but she will have huge issues when older that she was not wanted by anyone when Ellie was. I get their position as they wouldn't want to take her on and then several years later have her taken back possibly like the Ellie scenario but I do think the poor thing will want those answers. I say sibling rather than the name for obvious reasons . If I hear any further info re JG and BB I will happily post this if people want to know or can message individually. I was on a prison visit recently close to the venue where it happened and saw the estate and felt rather uneasy about it and then thought about how JG andBB carried on living there after Ellie died there and it really just summed it up for me about how they really are! Cold calculating and totally lacking any real form of paternal/ maternal instinct for their children!

Thanks for the update of JG/BB. It doesn`t really end with the trial and conviction when you have become so immersed in the case and characters. Having spent so much time following the case and seeing how the characters play out, knowing how they are knuckling down ( or not) to their reality seems a natural extension. So thank you.

I totally agree with your comments highlighted above. Why does she deserve protection - protection that she never gave to her defenceless children. Yet I guess the prison staff are aware that at the slightest issue or problem, JG will be issuing complaints, threatening to sue etc. She made numerous official complaints against hospital staff during her many visits. All time consuming to deal with - investigations, paperwork etc I think she`s really quite mad. Or just very, very vindictive.

Re YD - maybe the grandmother was already ill when YD was taken away? And I guess at their age they couldn`t keep taking babies every time JG decided to have one. I wonder if the grandfather will have contact with her. I would like to think he would at some point.

Michelle
 
Jog, Thank you for these updates on their incarceration, we'd never usually get to hear about that stage so thanks.
 
Today's DMail. Follow-up with Neal Gray

A week ago last Thursday, Neal Gray picked up a photograph of his late wife, Linda, from the sitting room mantelpiece, as he’s done every morning since her death four months ago.
He told her: ‘I’m going to see Miss Lynch today. She’s a nice lady. I think she’s going to make things right. You look after Ellie and tell her we haven’t stopped fighting for her. I miss you both very much.’

Then Neal, 71, put on his jacket, collected his walking stick and left his home in Wallington, Surrey, for a hearing at Croydon Coroner’s Court.
Miss Lynch, the South-East London Coroner, listened to an hour of submissions from a barrister and two solicitors, each of whom is working pro bono to see justice finally done for Neal’s granddaughter, Ellie.

It is up to Miss Lynch to decide whether to reopen the inquest into Ellie Butler’s death and thus force the local authority and courts — along with a private team of social workers appointed to the case by Mrs Justice Hogg — to answer for their actions. Or rather, their abject lack of action......

But, yet again, in an abominable mockery of British justice, Butler is considering an appeal.
Should his taxpayer-funded lawyers decide to push ahead, the nice Miss Lynch will not be able to ‘make things right’ for Ellie or her grandparents any time soon.

The last wish of Linda Gray, who died on April 19 on the opening day of the trial, was that the youngest of her three children should not know she was dying of cancer.
Nor was Jennie welcome at her funeral. Linda was cremated the following week and her ashes were scattered in nearby Beddington Park where, two years earlier, they had sprinkled Ellie’s ashes.
‘Ellie loved going there with her dog, Jess,’ says Neal. ‘She liked to go round the lake on her scooter and, when she got a bit older, her bike. I knew Lin wanted to be scattered with her.....

Neal and Linda also had a son, Jamie, 41, an electrical engineer, and daughter Julie, 40, an archaeologist. Neal says: ‘They never gave us a day’s trouble. They went to university and have professional jobs. ‘Lin and I soul-searched for years. Even in the last days, my wife was saying: “Where has it gone wrong? Where have we gone wrong? How have we produced a child who can be so evil as to stand by and see her partner kill her own child?” ‘I’ve asked the vicar, the doctor, the lady I had counselling with when Lin was dying. I said: “Is it me? Is it my wife?” She said: “It’s not you.”
‘They were all brought up the same, all given the same. We were as proud as punch of them. But somewhere, Jennie took the wrong road and mixed with the wrong crowd.’

Fingers crossed that we see the re-opening of the inquest.


Towards the end of the article are details about Neal's other children taking Ellie out on day-trips and interesting stuff about the indep SWs scaring Neal with contempt of court AND visiting Ellie's school to talk to her and what he had to say to Hogg when he took the stand.

‘They’d go to the school to try to talk to her. They said: “It would be better, Ellie, if you go back to live with your mummy and daddy.”
‘Ellie told these people she didn’t want to live with her mummy and daddy. She wanted to stay with her nana and granddad “for a million, million years”.’



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-father-rages-betrayed-her.html#ixzz4HBtNeXwG
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
 
Thanks for the updates.

I noticed reference to a photo Neal took of Ellie when they met the day before her death. It says Ellie was wearing face paint and the police were able to analyse the photo and see bruising under the face paint. I just keep wondering why good evidence such as this and the broken table was kept out of the trial. Even just Ellie's sunken eyes and unkempt appearance would have been helpful. Not that the jury needed additional help, but its always good to see a case bolstered with as much evidence as possible.

It's almost annoying to think they could have risked this pair being acquitted for the sake of a few more pieces of evidence.

I wonder how long we have to wait for the appeals process to be exhausted, or even get news on the first appeal. I'm sure he will use his full quota. At that stage I think we might see a little bit more in the way of photographic evidence. I'm sure the press is withholding more on this case. We haven't seen any pics of the the inside of the house yet, which is very unusual.
 
It is unbelievable that BB will get public funding for his appeal; as a taxpayer it is infuriating. However what I will say is that I hope it is fast tracked or similar so that he exhausts all avenues and then can get on with serving his sentence and Mr Grey can hopefully secure his enquiry for Ellie.

Thanks for the link, very upsetting and I do so hope that Mr Grey does secure a public enquiry. That's the first time I've seen a picture of Ellie as a toddler - what a beautiful girl she was.

I get get the feeling that more will come out as well. My heart goes out to Ellie's family
 
Thanks for the updates.

I noticed reference to a photo Neal took of Ellie when they met the day before her death. It says Ellie was wearing face paint and the police were able to analyse the photo and see bruising under the face paint. I just keep wondering why good evidence such as this and the broken table was kept out of the trial. Even just Ellie's sunken eyes and unkempt appearance would have been helpful. Not that the jury needed additional help, but its always good to see a case bolstered with as much evidence as possible.

It's almost annoying to think they could have risked this pair being acquitted for the sake of a few more pieces of evidence.

I wonder how long we have to wait for the appeals process to be exhausted, or even get news on the first appeal. I'm sure he will use his full quota. At that stage I think we might see a little bit more in the way of photographic evidence. I'm sure the press is withholding more on this case. We haven't seen any pics of the the inside of the house yet, which is very unusual.

It is the rules of evidence be they wrong or right. So grandad took the photo sIQTrack is classed as his exhibit so unless he gives evidence
 
It is the rules of evidence be they wrong or right. So grandad took the photo which I is classed as his exhibit so unless he gives evidence[ or appears in court the this can't be produced as evidence. Incredibly frustrating but that is the law and that is why so many other things were not introduced when to the ordinary bystander they should have been. My hope is that the judge regulated it so well that it prevents any appeal. As a legal person I have found out so much subsequently to the point that my firmcould have and would have helped the grandparents at the final family hearing if we had known Can o just say however justice Hogg has. A history of dealing with high profile cases and making very bizarre comments. She has dealt with This case and the McCann case resulting In a very silly Comment she made and has also dealt with a miracle baby case that defied all belief in her judgement.
The problem is we can all now say we can help but it won't change the outcome which is terribly sad and which I for one find more upsetting as from a legal perspective we should have done more. If we had been grandparents lawyers there is no way we would have backed out and left them on their own. so when the list of people who have attributed to Ellie's death are taken into account which is lengthy, then the grandparents lawyers should also have a long hard look at themselves. If they had represented the grandparents at the final hearing fully and presented cogent arguments the end result may have been very different although it is fair to say that the patents barristers are known for being very aggressive if they have a cause which of course they thought they had! The point that Neal gray has is that the whole episode was dealt with wrongly and he is entirely right about this and I really do hope for him that he gets some answers or st least closure because I think that is all this is keeping f the poor man going now !
 
It is the rules of evidence be they wrong or right. So grandad took the photo which I is classed as his exhibit so unless he gives evidence[ or appears in court the this can't be produced as evidence. Incredibly frustrating but that is the law and that is why so many other things were not introduced when to the ordinary bystander they should have been. My hope is that the judge regulated it so well that it prevents any appeal. As a legal person I have found out so much subsequently to the point that my firmcould have and would have helped the grandparents at the final family hearing if we had known Can o just say however justice Hogg has. A history of dealing with high profile cases and making very bizarre comments. She has dealt with This case and the McCann case resulting In a very silly Comment she made and has also dealt with a miracle baby case that defied all belief in her judgement.

Do you have a link to this case?
 
I would really like to reach out to Neal Gray , just to show support ,sympathy and to help his cause in anyway I can. Any ideas on how best to go about this? This poor man needs to know how much people care and how much support he has. Lou x
 

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