GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

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The thing that upsets me is that Ellie wasn't allowed to have her say. I was five when I was formally adopted and remember being questioned by the judge then. Why couldn't Ellie have that chance? This services for children organisation sound completely inept, and as for the judge... Jenny should have got a longer sentence in my opinion. I hope she gets some therapy in prison but I suspect she'll never be 'normal' in her relationships with men.
 
jog said:
A huge well done to the jury on what must have been an awful case to sit on. I find it hard enough hearing the facts and haven't heard them live. The jury will know see all the news and social media regarding this and will certainly be able to sleep soundly at night havin reached a verdict without being aware of some of these hideous facts! Can the same be said of justice Hogg ? It was clear most of the facts were before her which she chose to ignore. It is such a pity Ellie was not allowed to speak to her to give her view although of course I am aware she wild have been deemed as to young ! The way she was removed expeditiously from the grandparents is heartbreaking and I feel so sorry for the grandparents. When you look at the pictures of grandad in 2013 to now you can see how he has aged poor man! He has lost his granddaughter , wife and by choice now his daughter but he has continued to act with such dignity !

Having seen in part the this morning interview and other interviews JG and BB conducted and yhe subsequent revelations you realise the depth of deception . The fact that JG had the second child was revealed due to her shoplifting rather than just being stopped on the motorway as she alleged. Also they denied he was father of the second child rather than social services getting it wrong with the dna and also hearing about the state of the second child when JG was arrested for shoplifting clearly shows her neglect then! Thank goodness the neighbours spoke out and those diaries were found as without them the jury would could have been fooled by his and her lies ! the judges hand were tied to an extent with regard to her sentence, he did all he could by making it consecutive but when you see her history and how deceitful she is she deserved longer! She has time when she had the second child to escape she didn't and indeed it seems was as bad as him and she has had nearly three years since Ellie's death to reflect and be away from him and think my god what a life we were leading at that time and I can now see it was so wrong but she still didn't and was holding hands with him and mouthing out I love you and high fivong him! She will have a wake up call tonight when she enters Holloway! It would appear he is used to prison in any event so will be fine !

I have some sympathy for Sutton social services who clearly had their hands tied even more so by the ruling of justice Hogg re he exoneration of BB, he could clearly fool one person but luckily not the 12 on the jury!

All of this is now immaterial, many people have to now rebuke their lives in particular grandad and his family and the younger child. Let's hope they can do and that younger child now gets the live she deserves and that Ellie and her nanny can now rest in peace!

I would still be interested to see the post of Sally la which was removed , if I am allowed to!

Thank you to everyone who has posted on this thread and been at court you have been brilliant
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Hear hear. So eloquently put. And the words I am sure of us here feel the same. Justice for Ellie HAS been done. Thank you to you all on WS for the tireless efforts in bringing such a difficult case to light. And as we've seen it thru. Now for the ramifications.

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Tillymint said:
The thing that upsets me is that Ellie wasn't allowed to have her say. I was five when I was formally adopted and remember being questioned by the judge then. Why couldn't Ellie have that chance? This services for children organisation sound completely inept, and as for the judge... Jenny should have got a longer sentence in my opinion. I hope she gets some therapy in prison but I suspect she'll never be 'normal' in her relationships with men.
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I agree Tilly.
It is so upsetting that she wanted to speak to the judge


http://www.servicesforchildren.co.uk/contact-us.html

see page 26 of the report if u don't already have it

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5ILmebheQx3YmhvbjVYOHlpN2M/view?pref=2&pli=1
 
I can remember saying in my very first post that I thought that BB's overwhelming arrogance and self-worth played a part in him insisting on regaining custody of his children as a matter of pride - regarding them as property.

I know that was probably presumptuous before the case had even really got going, but that couple and their faux traumatised pouty 'hard done by' Daily Mail photo faces pimping themselves around the papers and TV got my hinky-meter going off the scale right from the start.

Even though that was the case, I never predicted just how evil the pair of them would turn out to be. The level of manipulation, bullying and calculation which they both indulged in was unbelievable. I have to say I believe JG should have got a longer sentence although I understand that this may have been due to the tariffs available.

I also have to say that next down in my level of disgust comes 'Justice' Hogg and that sorry excuse for a private children's social services company. I would quite like to know whether any proceedings could be brought against either party as a result of their appalling performance and dereliction of duty which I believe are directly responsible for what happened to Ellie, even if the actual murder was at the hands of BB.
 
ColourPurple said:
Interesting. Demanding opiates eh! Wonder if she's ever been drug tested and whether some of the admissions were for the purpose of getting opiates
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Opiates could also have been just pain relief. Codeine Morphine Tramadol.

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cottonweaver said:
Heartbreaker

Grandpa tells the author of the SSRC that Ellie did not want to leave and they made it clear to the Independent SW s Ellie asked to see the Judge - ie Justice Hogg.

This is just devastating

page 29

Grandpa says that s4c ( ISWs) told him E should not have discussion on leaving for new "parents". So he thinks E thought she was going for a sleepover on the day she left them forever.
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:crying: why couldn't they just listen to her? She'd be alive now if they did.

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cottonweaver said:
I'm reading the Serious Case review now. Poor dog hasn't even been for a walk, have done very little this afternoon - chained to a laptop - how bad is that!!:facepalm:

Anyway as well as Hannah Hillman( exGF) being unwilling to testify at one point to his assaults, I'm wondering if underlined might include that family member rumour ( newspaper comment, trying to be vague, sorry)



https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5ILmebheQx3YmhvbjVYOHlpN2M/view?pref=2&pli=1
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Thank you for posting that cw. Very interesting read, and fills in a lot of the background info we have been wondering about.

18 previous convictions!!

Also details bruising to sibling's back, discovered by foster carer after Ellie's death, when JG refused permission for her to be medically examined. And clear evidence that Ellie was in trouble with them from the word go. I can't believe she had said she didn't want to go and live with them, had asked if she could speak to the judge, and thought the first night of her permanent move was just a one night sleepover. It's truly shocking.
 
ColourPurple said:
Quoting myself as I've just read in the review about the hospital attendances for JG for injuries and illnesses which include

"overuse of opiate medication for pain, potential fabricated illnesses "

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5ILmebheQx3YmhvbjVYOHlpN2M/view?pref=2&pli=1
Click to expand...

remember her blue paper wishes letter to the divinities?

She was praying to be kept in hospital, for tests, it was bizarre, she mentioned cancer.

Do you think she was addicted or just wanted to numb all the mental pain?
 
cottonweaver said:
I was only joking kid, I don't really want you to tweet your appreciation to Justice Hogg. x
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What appreciation.... hehe
We'll she's hardly not going to hear about this case is she?
It's headlining.. and trending #Butler

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Lyra500 said:
I can remember saying in my very first post that I thought that BB's overwhelming arrogance and self-worth played a part in him insisting on regaining custody of his children as a matter of pride - regarding them as property.

I know that was probably presumptuous before the case had even really got going, but that couple and their faux traumatised pouty Daily Mail photo faces pimping themselves around the papers and TV got my hinky-meter going off the scale right from the start.

Even though that was the case, I never predicted just how evil the pair of them would turn out to be. The level of manipulation, bullying and calculation which they both indulged in was unbelievable. I have to say I believe JG should have got a longer sentence although I understand that this may have been due to the tariffs available.

I have to say that next down in my level of disgust comes 'Justice' Hogg and that sorry excuse for a private children's social services company. I would quite like to know whether any proceedings could be brought against either party as a result of their appalling performance and dereliction of duty which I believe are directly responsible for what happened to Ellie, even if the actual murder was at the hands of BB.
Click to expand...
I guess ramifications are underway. One person has already been called to resign. And has. I forget her name but it won't just end there..

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Gigi-G said:
:crying: why couldn't they just listen to her? She'd be alive now if they did.

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Click to expand...

S4C probably didn't pass that on ?
Tillymint just pointed out that she was asked at age 5.

It kills me that she knew what she wanted and didn't want and no-one was listening and no-one listened to Grandpa.
I bet JG accused Gpa of all sorts of made up shet, to exaggerate their differences as this conflict between the 4 of them was apparently a prime reason for speeding up the transfer
 
Yayyy I found the end 😨

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Gigi-G said:
Opiates could also have been just pain relief. Codeine Morphine Tramadol.

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Click to expand...

I know but there are two mentions of her either demanding and/or overusing them and the second is mentioned alongside possible fabricated illness. For medical staff to have noted their concerns it seems that it wasn't just normal use for painkilling purposes
 
You know it really does beg me to wonder. From a caring family life. As in you don't hear this kind of Shet about JG siblings. What or why made her into the evil she's become?

Don't all jump on me I know a lot of women find it hard to leave a controlling partner...
Marrying young too has issues.
But everyone doesn't end up like her?

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cottonweaver said:
Heartbreaker

Grandpa tells the author of the SSRC that Ellie did not want to leave and they made it clear to the Independent SW s Ellie asked to see the Judge - ie Justice Hogg.

This is just devastating

page 29

Grandpa says that s4c ( ISWs) told him E should not have discussion on leaving for new "parents". So he thinks E thought she was going for a sleepover on the day she left them forever.
Click to expand...

Ellie did indeed think she was going for a sleepover; four days after the incompetent "Services 4 Children" ripped her away from her grandparents, JG and BB phoned them up to gripe about Ellie's behaviour and that she thought it was only a temporary sleepover.

Services 4 Children were absolutely cruel. At first they were only supposed to be overseeing YD's return, then they decided Ellie should return too. It was supposed to be a slow process to ease Ellie in to the change, but it ended up happening in a few weeks. If I remember rightly it was supposed to happen slowly over a year, then it was reduced to by the end of 2013, then the end of November after a sleepover, then the 9th of November. There was no sleepover, it just happened suddenly. S4C didn't even allow the grandparents to say goodbye; the grandparents dropped Ellie off at school one morning as normal, then JG and BB came to pick her up and that was that. Ellie had no idea. S4C forbade contact between Ellie and the grandparents for 4 weeks to get her used to it.


S4C insisted that the grandparents should not discuss the move with Ellie, although the grandparents wanted to be honest and open. Ellie was terrified every time S4C visited and would try to hide. She had nightmares about them taking her away and began to wet the bed. S4C paid no attention to Ellie's loving bond with her grandparents and her deep wish to stay with them, and forced her to live with JG and BB despite their belligerence and incompetence (including JG not bothering to take time off work for YD's introduction).

As well as failing to prioritise Ellie's wishes, then failing to ease her in slowly (effectively sending Ellie to live with hostile strangers), S4C also failed to contact people who had previously worked with Ellie, so that they didn't have a full picture of what was going on.

No wonder people are terrified of social workers, when they behave like this - suddenly ripping children away against their welfare and wishes, without telling them what's happening and without allowing them to say goodbye to their loved ones.

S4C should not be allowed to practice.
 
cottonweaver said:
remember her blue paper wishes letter to the divinities?

She was praying to be kept in hospital, for tests, it was bizarre, she mentioned cancer.

Do you think she was addicted or just wanted to numb all the mental pain?
Click to expand...

Could be either or both I guess but it did make me wonder if maybe some of the injuries were self inflicted rather than being from BB. Being in hospitla also kept her away from BB. I can't work out why she took the younger daughter to hospital with her and left Ellie with him... ah actually maybe I can. Maybe Ellie was injured too and was not in a fit state to be seen in public and would have aroused the suspicion of medical staff.
 
Thank you for the link, cotton weaver.
Yes, I was asked if I was happy to be adopted and some other questions too. I was only five but I remember it clearly. It was in an office rather than a court, and I asked the judge why she didn't have a wig on. She took me into the empty courtroom so I could see what it was like. No reason why Ellie couldn't have had her say too.
They just rode rough shod over her rights and feelings, in my opinion. She must have been so homesick for her grandparents, afraid and unhappy. It makes me so sad.
 
squish said:
Ellie did indeed think she was going for a sleepover; four days after the incompetent "Services 4 Children" ripped her away from her grandparents, JG and BB phoned them up to gripe about Ellie's behaviour and that she thought it was only a temporary sleepover.

Services 4 Children were absolutely cruel. At first they were only supposed to be overseeing YD's return, then they decided Ellie should return too. It was supposed to be a slow process to ease Ellie in to the change, but it ended up happening in a few weeks. If I remember rightly it was supposed to happen slowly over a year, then it was reduced to by the end of 2013, then the end of November after a sleepover, then the 9th of November. There was no sleepover, it just happened suddenly. S4C didn't even allow the grandparents to say goodbye; the grandparents dropped Ellie off at school one morning as normal, then JG and BB came to pick her up and that was that. Ellie had no idea. S4C forbade contact between Ellie and the grandparents for 4 weeks to get her used to it.


S4C insisted that the grandparents should not discuss the move with Ellie, although the grandparents wanted to be honest and open. Ellie was terrified every time S4C visited and would try to hide. She had nightmares about them taking her away and began to wet the bed. S4C paid no attention to Ellie's loving bond with her grandparents and her deep wish to stay with them, and forced her to live with JG and BB despite their belligerence and incompetence (including JG not bothering to take time off work for YD's introduction).

As well as failing to prioritise Ellie's wishes, then failing to ease her in slowly (effectively sending Ellie to live with hostile strangers), S4C also failed to contact people who had previously worked with Ellie, so that they didn't have a full picture of what was going on.

No wonder people are terrified of social workers, when they behave like this - suddenly ripping children away against their welfare and wishes, without telling them what's happening and without allowing them to say goodbye to their loved ones.

S4C should not be allowed to practice.
Click to expand...
I

Heartbreaking. It says S4C so weren't aware of the full background details of JG and BB. I bet Ellie's grandparents filled them in on a few!!
 
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