GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #10

[Alyce]

The baby one

 

[MillyM]

Milly - good to see you back on here

Thanks, A. Been checking in now and then, but really nothing to add. I just keep thinking that if my view is like that of just one or two on the jury, this verdict could take a while! So much that doesn't feel right or add up about it, even though the bare bones of it say he killed her for her money. End of. But if so, it was both cleverly conceived in some parts, and so abysmally in others.

 

[pinklilies]

Here's my contribution to the furry friends - taken just after the guilty verdict comes in! :happydance:

Little Dolly could do with borrowing those gnashers, specially if it's liver tonight [emoji23]


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[Interested Bystander]

I have a Zen like calm about the time taken and the inevitable outcome.

If you take a look at http://www.britsoccrim.org/volume4/004.pdf you'll see that those Juries that take time to work through the legal questions and apply the law to the given evidence have a higher ratio of coming to the correct verdict. It's a handy bit of research and adds to my zen. Either that or it's the gin!

RB

I had a bottle of Merlot (my favourite red) ready to go with the lamb and cinnamon pasta tonight. That is now on hold. However, to steady my nerves I thought I might open a new bottle of gin brought back from Iceland by my daughter and her family. They spent Christmas there.

I know you are a gin connoisseur - have you tried Icelandic gin? This one is called VOR made from 100 per cent Icelandic barley, hand picked botanicals and distilled with care using green geothermal energy and is 47 per cent proof!. Difford Guide gives it 4 stars.

https://www.diffordsguide.com/beer-...d-juniper-spirits/BWS004986/vor-icelandic-gin

At 47 per cent proof I shall be under the table on one double. That should be enough to calm my nerves.

 

[icemaiden65]

Little Dolly could do with borrowing those gnashers, specially if it's liver tonight [emoji23]


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You mean you don't chew it for her first? You could always get a little blitzer thingy and puree her food? x

 

[Alyce]

Middle gal, looking stressed out as usual

 

[Moll]

Thanks, A. Been checking in now and then, but really nothing to add. I just keep thinking that if my view is like that of just one or two on the jury, this verdict could take a while! So much that doesn't feel right or add up about it, even though the bare bones of it say he killed her for her money. End of. But if so, it was both cleverly conceived in some parts, and so abysmally in others.

Milly
Could you say what are the areas where there's more doubt than has come through on the Cambridge News reports?

 

[Rayemonde]

Think he and his girlfriend went to Oz not long after, both of them were posting photos of themselves over there on FB around 7th May.

ETA. And Speedy Tortie plus Quick Draw McGraw (aka Alyce) beat me to it!

Nick and Joe probably insisted that they went :lol:

 

[Alyce]

Haven't posted here for awhile as have been there for several days and so saw other side if you like. Knew my press card would come in useful for something one day ! though hardly ever needed.

I haven't really changed my viewpoint on this case from the one I had from the start. I am surprised that from a quick look I seem to be the only one hers not expecting a verdict within hours, which I never thought it would be; personally I think it could be Thursday or Friday. Most of us are just getting the case as told by Cambridge News and not all what the jury have and know. I would have liked to see tge defence be more robust, and the prosecution have not really nailed the case as firmly as perhaps they may have hoped at the outset.*

Stewart has firmly played the grieving widower beset by serious health afflictions who has lost his beloved at the hands of kidnappers. While there are many ponderables and things - for me, at least - still not cleared up as satisfactorily as I would have liked, how many of the jurors buy into the 'what if' scenario, remains to be seen.*

Many thanks for the update Milly. So true that we only get the snippets and don't always get a feel for how the case is actually coming across live ( except for when we get updates from you and Michelle actually on the spot ).

There was one witness, can't remember who now, and we on here all thought she had done great, only to be told that she had required loads of prompting and did not come across well at all.

In all the cases I follow on here ( not that many as don't have the time ) I am always worrying about a verdict, thinking that the Jury won't be able to come to a quick decision, it will go the wrong way ( for me ! ) etc etc...

This case is the first time I have felt like it would be a done deal and a very quick turn around. Just shows how wrong I can be and I am now back to thinking there may not even be a verdict tomorrow.

 

[BatFace]

Pickle awaits justice for Boris.


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[LozDa]

Our 4 idiots:

Old boy Django:

Old girl Nanci:

Young boy Teddy:

Young girl Disco:

 

[DollyDiamond]

You mean you don't chew it for her first? You could always get a little blitzer thingy and puree her food? x

Dolly may not have teeth but she can eat a whole steak (admittedly it takes her a couple of hours!)

I'm so disappointed there's no guilty verdict today. I honestly don't see any significant weakness in the prosecution's case against IS. To my mind, it couldn't be more obvious he killed Helen Bailey if someone had taken a picture of him dumping the bodies in the cesspit. And who else could possibly have amended the standing order within the house but IS? Do the jury believe Helen decided to do it on the very day she went missing, in order to redecorate a spare bedroom to the tune of £4k a month?

If the jury don't return a verdict tomorrow morning I will be hopping mad!

 

[TheRisenBishop]

How do you think he concealed his true nature for so long?

Do you think he just needed time to act up to murder?

Hi Mr J, the honest answer is he is still managing to conceal his true nature. Without a complete forensic psychiatric evaluation with collateral history it is impossible to know and even with one might be equivocal.

My suspicions are that his true personality is rooted in his childhood relationship with his mother who we know had a history of depression/anxiety. Without a full collateral history it is impossible to say what his psychopathy/sociopathy stems from.

It's likely his APD is rooted in this dysfunctional relationship. In psychoanalysis it is known as erotic cathexis. It is a complex area of psychology and to show you how difficult it is to come to a determination and to give you a better understanding have a look at: file: http://www2.uwe.ac.uk/services/Mark...Psychosocial Studies/murderermadmanmisfit.pdf

This is a brilliant piece of work by David Gadd, Professor of Criminology at Manchester University Law School, and Director of the Centre for Criminology and Criminal Law.

It serves to highlight how complex the unique psychiatric and psychological elements that make up the horrible generic term we identify as APD. It's also why I feel, and I've said before, that we need a review about how those with APD's are dealt with within the criminal justice system.

In truth, we will never know the answers to the questions you've raised. It's too complex an area. All I know is he displays all the characteristics of having an APD. How it came about...? Your guess is as good as mine without further evaluation and the current CJS will not permit us that.

 

[cheeseman]

Not sure a tablet crusher would work. They are basically the same as tamper proof oxy tabs in the states where they are covered a strange microfilm that's sorta dissolved in stomach acids and not water. I have no doubt be some research it could be done. But I watched a programme on oxy in Pennsylvania and those tamper proof tabs are worth way less than their counterparts as it's a complete pain making them soluble for injection.

Zopiclone tabs are tiny anyway, like a quarter size of a paracetamol 500.

Tho I'm no expert. Do we have an eta for a verdict on this case?

I know this might seem out of place right now, but has anyone considered the possibility that he never intended on killing either Helen or his first wife but was responsible for both their deaths?

There are quite a few poisoners in history that seem to get a kick out of making others ill - maybe it's a mental illness. An example I know of is the Hadland's poisoner who poisoned his colleagues with thallium over a long period of time, for no motive whatsoever.

He got away with accidentally killing his first wife, but a second? Maybe he then panicked and dumped her body in the only place he had available and then had to make things up as he went along.

I don't believe he killed her for financial reasons. I do think he's sick in the head. Maybe he is psychopathic but there's more there too. Murdering someone like this for financial gain seems like an extraordinary risky pursuit unless you have everything extremely well planned. This seems to be very badly planned right from the start. An example of someone who did plan things well for deliberate financial gain was Malcolm Webster.

 

[neteditor]

I know this might seem out of place right now, but has anyone considered the possibility that he never intended on killing either Helen or his first wife but was responsible for both their deaths?

There are quite a few poisoners in history that seem to get a kick out of making others ill - maybe it's a mental illness. An example I know of is the Hadland's poisoner who poisoned his colleagues with thallium over a long period of time, for no motive whatsoever.

He got away with accidentally killing his first wife, but a second? Maybe he then panicked and dumped her body in the only place he had available and then had to make things up as he went along.

I don't believe he killed her for financial reasons. I do think he's sick in the head. Maybe he is psychopathic but there's more there too. Murdering someone like this for financial gain seems like an extraordinary risky pursuit unless you have everything extremely well planned. This seems to be very badly planned right from the start. An example of someone who did plan things well for deliberate financial gain was Malcolm Webster.

I had a similar thought earlier in the trial. Some sort of Munchausens by Proxy that went horribly wrong... twice.

 

[porkypies]

Tortoise "I was trying to type a reply to one of Dolly's posts in the previous thread last night, and I spent so long over it because I couldn't express adequately what I wanted to say and by the time I gave up and scrapped it, the thread was closed anyway. It was the post about IS dumping Helen in excrement and then sat eating his Chinese. I agreed with Dolly's sentiments entirely and wanted to add something which I then decided sounded like rubbish so I gave up trying. I will try again with my morning brain but to be honest it still sounds clumsy.

It is to do with the significance of putting Helen in the pit to rot away and how it meant she would never have a funeral, never have the love bestowed on her that was her right, never allowing her family to honour her and allowing them to suffer for the rest of their lives, searching and never having closure.

That coldness (and this is why I can't express it properly because we know it existed anyway from the fact it was murder with premeditation) means he is unable to love. You can't compartmentalise love, have love for your sons but no love for Helen. Because there is no rationale to hate Helen. It isn't hatred for Helen, it is taking her life AND giving her nothing in death. No remorse. There was nothing left for him to do afterwards in terms of processing or grieving. It was over for him. She was nothing to him.

I've seen posts this morning postulating that he was worried about dying and his sons not being provided for. Knowing his inability to love, from the way he dealt with Helen as you would toss away an old chicken carcass, I can't believe that was his motive. He is cold and empty. Really. He does not have love for anyone. He is a true psychopath.

Nothing has been said in the trial about him being loving, not one family member has said it. Isn't it strange that his sons weren't asked that? I'm sure it would have been played on big time if there were examples of it to give the jury. In the Ben Butler trial we had home videos of him taking his children to the park and their birthday parties and Christmas present opening, stories about making pizzas with them and taking them shopping to the Disney store to buy perfume.

We heard IS isn't confrontational or violent but that doesn't mean loving. I would be willing to bet actually that he is controlling through other means, like sulking, teasing, running others down and gaslighting. He might have emulated love for Helen, but it was hollow, a game he enacted to get her money. I don't think it's even about money, it's about what money represents for him. Power.

He will play any game to get it. Given that he has demonstrated all this, I think it's more than a safe bet he has never loved anyone in his life. Everyone in his life exists to be used. He isn't human as we know humans to be, so I don't think we can discover true motive that is understandable within our own experience. Rehabilitation if that were a goal, is out of the question."

Yes.
As a concerned/conscientious father, 19? yrs disabled with possible 'choking and breathing problems caused by his MG condition, and more recently a 'cancer' scare followed up with 'major surgery' he would have surely made an updated will very recently - clarifying his sons' position and securing their £financial future in case he died before Helen. If not, I wonder why?

 

[Tortoise]

RB

I had a bottle of Merlot (my favourite red) ready to go with the lamb and cinnamon pasta tonight. That is now on hold. However, to steady my nerves I thought I might open a new bottle of gin brought back from Iceland by my daughter and her family. They spent Christmas there.

I know you are a gin connoisseur - have you tried Icelandic gin? This one is called VOR made from 100 per cent Icelandic barley, hand picked botanicals and distilled with care using green geothermal energy and is 47 per cent proof!. Difford Guide gives it 4 stars.

https://www.diffordsguide.com/beer-...d-juniper-spirits/BWS004986/vor-icelandic-gin

At 47 per cent proof I shall be under the table on one double. That should be enough to calm my nerves.

See you tomorrow then!

 

[Tiny]

Beautiful animals Sleuthers. They all warm the cockles in the midst of this waiting game.

I came across this article which re iterates the fact that killers should not profit from their crimes and is a principle of law. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4245674/Millionaire-killer-ordered-pay-two-sons-1-5m.html

 

[LozDa]

Pickle awaits justice for Boris.


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OMG, I can't take these dog pictures. Pickle is adorable [emoji190]❤️

 

[Tortoise]

[video=youtube;mJD6fg9Ld5A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJD6fg9Ld5A[/video]