GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #2

[mrazda71]

Very politely stated, Florrie. And I couldn't agree more.

I think it's also important that we should be able to discuss theories of the man and how he ticked and why, without being accused of pretending we know him, or Helen, in any depth.

Yes Yes, I get the message loud and clear!!!

Anyone else want to have a dig at me? Roll up, roll up ...

 

[LozDa]

Yes Yes, I get the message loud and clear!!!

Anyone else want to have a dig at me? Roll up, roll up ...

I was making general comments. Websleuths is not for the sensitive - I believe you told me that.

 

[mrazda71]

I was making general comments. Websleuths is not for the sensitive - I believe you told me that.

I'm being Sarcastic not sensitive.

 

[Alyce]

Anyone know:-

Re Helen's estate. As IS is not allowed to profit from crime (assuming he is found guilty) will Jamie and Oliver inherit or will Helen's estate revert back to Helen's family?

If Helen gave everything to IS in her Will then it will not stand ( I think that's the technical term ! ) and the laws of intestacy will come into effect...which means that everything goes to her next of kin, which will be her parents.

If there were any other bequests in Helen's Will, apart from the stuff she gave to IS ( which seemed to be the lions share ) then ISs share goes back into the pot so to speak and is divided out between the other beneficiaries, pro rata.

So if she had ,say ,two minor beneficiaries and gave one £9,000 and one £1,000 then they would get 90% and 10% respectively.

There is no way that either of ISs sons can benefit from ISs crime. The only way they could inherit anything is if Helen had bequeathed something directly to them.

 

[LozDa]

I'm Sarcastic not sensitive.

We can avoid each other too.

 

[mrazda71]

We can avoid each other too.

Yay 😉😂😄🤗

 

[cottonweaver]

I was in court today, and it's a fascinating case.

One of the things which surprised me most was observing the interaction *outside* the courtroom between one of the Stewart sons (only one was there) and Helen Bailey's brother, John, and his partner, Fraser Dyer.

During the frequent breaks, Jamie and John/Fraser were amiably talking to each other. There was no avoidance whatsoever. Not merely acknowledgements either, actually chit-chatting and hanging around together.

This makes sense in a way. Jamie is probably still living in the Baldock Road house which is in his father's name. It is in John Bailey's interests to be on amiable terms with the Stewart sons, given that all of Helen's belongings are in the house, and John Bailey would clearly have no right of entry or right to her possessions, given I assume that probate has not yet been granted on HB's estate pending the outcome of the trial.

One wonders whether the Stewart sons were witnesses for the defence or prosecution; perhaps they are not united on this matter. But from observing Jamie today, I anticipate that perhaps he's not on his father's side. I know that both sons didn't recall "Joe and Nick". Perhaps it might be a stretch to think that Jamie might retain a friendship with the Baileys (it would be easy to sympathise with him; having lost his mum to cancer and then his dad jailed for murder, all before the age of 25). But who knows.

John Beavis, the drain cleaner man who unearthed Helen's body was shaking in the dock as he recounted what he had seen. The police have a photo of Helen's arm sticking out of the cesspit; the corpse was wearing a "stripey top" which could well be the one she is wearing in her Facebook profile pic.

Roll on Friday.

:tyou:
so much for feeding back to us. Your observations are really interesting and we're always lucky on a WS big case to have someone attend and give us their perspective.
Looking forward to hearing more Lit Up.

 

[Cherwell]

If Helen gave everything to IS in her Will then it will not stand ( I think that's the technical term ! ) and the laws of intestacy will come into effect...which means that everything goes to her next of kin, which will be her parents.

If there were any other bequests in Helen's Will, apart from the stuff she gave to IS ( which seemed to be the lions share ) then ISs share goes back into the pot so to speak and is divided out between the other beneficiaries, pro rata.

So if she had ,say ,two minor beneficiaries and gave one £9,000 and one £1,000 then they would get 90% and 10% respectively.

There is no way that either of ISs sons can benefit from ISs crime. The only way they could inherit anything is if Helen had bequeathed something directly to them.

How I see it: assuming Stewart is found guilty, the house will be sold in order to realise his share of it, which would remain his property. Theoretically Helen's heirs could buy him out, but realistically they are not going to want the house.

ETA I would be surprised if nobody else is named in her will. I imagine that she would want to leave something to her brother at least.

 

[Joely 123]

Anyone know:-

Re Helen's estate. As IS is not allowed to profit from crime (assuming he is found guilty) will Jamie and Oliver inherit or will Helen's estate revert back to Helen's family?

I would like to think that Jamie and Oliver inherit all of their Father's estate - and Helen's family inherit hers, including - perhaps - JS children. This seems the only balanced way - J & M shouldn't lose out because of this -they have suffered enough already .. but they are not Helen's responsibility (surely) and their Father needs to honour that.

 

[Squamous]

I would seriously think that IS' sons would probably rather live anywhere but in that house at the moment. I would also think it's value will have plummeted too, murder scene houses seem pretty hard to shift from what I've seen. I'm generally quite pragmatic about these things but I don't think I could live in it.

Also, I wonder what sewage system it has at the moment? The pit where the bodies were found is presumably still out of action. I imagine the first thing the eventual owner will do is get the cesspit removed and sort out mains sewage or at least a new tank system.

 

[Interested Bystander]

If Helen gave everything to IS in her Will then it will not stand ( I think that's the technical term ! ) and the laws of intestacy will come into effect...which means that everything goes to her next of kin, which will be her parents.

If there were any other bequests in Helen's Will, apart from the stuff she gave to IS ( which seemed to be the lions share ) then ISs share goes back into the pot so to speak and is divided out between the other beneficiaries, pro rata.

So if she had ,say ,two minor beneficiaries and gave one £9,000 and one £1,000 then they would get 90% and 10% respectively.

There is no way that either of ISs sons can benefit from ISs crime. The only way they could inherit anything is if Helen had bequeathed something directly to them.

Many thanks. I have come across the Slayer's Rule in the US (where children of a murderer cannot benefit/inherit) but couldn't find the equivalent for us in the UK.

 

[Alyce]

How I see it: assuming Stewart is found guilty, the house will be sold in order to realise his share of it, which would remain his property. Theoretically Helen's heirs could buy him out, but realistically they are not going to want the house.

I completely agree. Helen's family wouldnt want to go within a million miles !

The thing that grates with me is that because IS has a part ownership he will do very nicely out of the sale as the property has increased in value by about £750,000 since the purchase in 2013.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I would seriously think that IS' sons would probably rather live anywhere but in that house at the moment. I would also think it's value will have plummeted too, murder scene houses seem pretty hard to shift from what I've seen. I'm generally quite pragmatic about these things but I don't think I could live in it.

Also, I wonder what sewage system it has at the moment? The pit where the bodies were found is presumably still out of action. I imagine the first thing the eventual owner will do is get the cesspit removed and sort out mains sewage or at least a new tank system.

Ditto, I couldn't live in a house where a murder has been committed and, as you say, the value of the property will probably diminish due to lack of interest.

 

[Alyce]

I would like to think that Jamie and Oliver inherit all of their Father's estate - and Helen's family inherit hers, including - perhaps - JS children. This seems the only balanced way - J & M shouldn't lose out because of this -they have suffered enough already .. but they are not Helen's responsibility (surely) and their Father needs to honour that.

IS - if found guilty - can only keep his share of the property - and his personal possessions.
He cannot inherit anything under the Will ( thank goodness )

He could pass his share of the property on to J and O, but they will then have to deal with whomever has inherited from Helen's Will.

As I said earlier, if there are other beneficiaries in Helen's Will, apart from IS, then they get it all.
If there are none, then it goes, via intestacy, to Helen's parents.

If JSs children are not in the Will then they do not come into the picture.

 

[cottonweaver]

I completely agree. Helen's family wouldnt want to go within a million miles !

The thing that grates with me is that because IS has a part ownership he will do very nicely out of the sale as the property has increased in value by about £750,000 since the purchase in 2013.

Wow. I didn't realise that Alyce.
I am sorry but I would hate to think that they could even want to live there in the interim. ( I assume they are elsewhere.) Even strangers like us would feel so sad spending a night there. I wouldn't feel afraid, just very sad.

 

[Alyce]

I would seriously think that IS' sons would probably rather live anywhere but in that house at the moment. I would also think it's value will have plummeted too, murder scene houses seem pretty hard to shift from what I've seen. I'm generally quite pragmatic about these things but I don't think I could live in it.

Also, I wonder what sewage system it has at the moment? The pit where the bodies were found is presumably still out of action. I imagine the first thing the eventual owner will do is get the cesspit removed and sort out mains sewage or at least a new tank system.

Not sure about that. In a recent case ( Sadie Hartley ) where Sadie was literally butchered to death in her hallway - very graphic details were given - the house sold for the asking price ( no drop in value ) a few months after the case ended.

 

[Alyce]

Wow. I didn't realise that Alyce.
I am sorry but I would hate to think that they could even want to live there in the interim. ( I assume they are elsewhere.) Even strangers like us would feel so sad spending a night there. I wouldn't feel afraid, just very sad.

I agree re the living elsewhere. Apart from the respect to Helen that I mentioned, I would also think it quite gruesome on a personal level for them to be there.

 

[Squamous]

Not sure about that. In a recent case ( Sadie Hartley ) where Sadie was literally butchered to death in her hallway - very graphic details were given - the house sold for the asking price ( no drop in value ) a few months after the case ended.

Interesting. Though I think if her body had lain hidden there for three months that might affect it a bit more. I think that's what gets me most about this case (and must be so disturbing for those lads).

It was also rented in the Hartley case IIRC. Which wouldn't affect the crime-scene-ness but would mean there wouldn't be the same legal wrangle.

 

[Alyce]

Interesting. Though I think if her body had lain hidden there for three months that might affect it a bit more. I think that's what gets me most about this case (and must be so disturbing for those lads).

It was also rented in the Hartley case IIRC. Which wouldn't affect the crime-scene-ness but would mean there wouldn't be the same legal wrangle.

No it was owned by Sadie. We all thought it was rented to begin with, but it did come out at the trial that she had bought the property. Her children gave the boyfriend 24 hours to pack up and leave.

I agree with you re the 3 months body in the septic tank thought.........but it is amazing how many people won't let that concern them.

 

[SiSi]

Gruesome certainly is the only appropriate description . . .