GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #3

[Coldpizza]

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[Alyce]

I've looked up the Air Cadets Bassingbourn Squadron that OS belonged to, to see what time they meet on Mondays, and it's 6:45pm to 9:45pm. It's at SG8 5LX, 5 miles from home, and 10 minutes by car. So he would have left home at around 6:30.

IS was in Cambridge at 6pm. That is a 30 minute drive away, so he would need to have left by 5:30pm.

OS says he saw his father


I'm not doubting OS' testimony, just trying to see how it fits. If OS was home before IS left at 5:30pm, but didn't need to leave himself for another whole hour, I wonder why the reference to the conversation being brief - dad knowing his 'Monday night routine' makes it sound quite rushed.

Perhaps he confused himself - the interaction was brief because IS was in a hurry to leave.

Then there is time unaccounted for that afternoon.

The trip from doctors to tip takes 11 minutes (according to Google maps)

If the timing of CCTV at Royston Recycling Centre is correct he would have had to have left the doctors by 2:51pm. Yet he didn't arrive at the doctors until 2:54pm, so the tip CCTV clock (3:02pm) must be wrong.

Going with the doctors records, he left there at 3:07pm. So he would have arrived at the tip at 3:18pm.

Strangely, Helen's phone disconnects from the network at 3:18pm. Did he do this in the car, to make it seem as if that was the time Helen left home, while he was out, and switched her phone off so he couldn't contact her?

So from 3:18 there is 1 hour and 42 minutes to fill until 5pm.

The solicitors is 7 minutes by car from the tip, and 5 minutes from home.

Even if he spent 42 minutes unloading boxes & duvet, and dropping off paperwork, there is still an hour missing.

I think he went home after the tip and had to look for Helen's paperwork before going to the solicitors. I wonder if the prosecution has more evidence of his car movements that day. They checked local CCTV and ANPR for Helen's car that morning, but did they leave it too late by the time he was declared a suspect, to check his movements on local cameras?


Another thing that I find strange is the Crown's opening statement -

[FONT=&]“A standing order from Bailey to Stewart was modified that same afternoon, and changed to the defendant’s advantage - a standing order from £600 to £4000 - to transfer from Helen’s account to Stewart’s. Although an attempt has been made to clear computer history at the house, this small fragment of information was found.”

This sounds as if it was successfully changed, so I can't understand the attempted access to her bank account at 7:58pm.


[/FONT]

Rather than add more to my previous post, I will put up a new one.

Two other thoughts.

From the refuse tip to the train station is 3 minutes.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/R...8e51e8d42583503!2m2!1d-0.02689!2d52.05309!3e0

Could he have left the tip by 3.15 ( allowing an earlier departure from the Surgery ) and switched off the phone as he went past the station ? to connect it with Helen and a train journey ?
But still doesnt make sense to carry the phone around, unless it would not matter, because the range would be similar to being at Hartwell Lodge ( triangulation )

Or.........is the Refuse tip clock incorrect, in that it had not been changed to British Summer Time ( which would have been only a few weeks prior ).
So the actual time at the tip was 4.02 pm

 

[Tortoise]

<<rsbm>>

Even assuming that one of the timings is slightly wrong, either the doctors log out or the refuse tip, and that these are google best estimates of drive times, it still seems that at 3.18pm he would not be back at Hartwell Lodge.

Which is strange. Because surely, with Helen's phone still switched on, he would not want to be driving around with it in his car. He would have left the phone at the house ( I think ) and then would switch it off when he gets back from his trips, indicating that this is the moment when Helen leaves home, and switches off her phone so as not to be contacted by anyone.

Back to my ignorance of phones again, but if they never found Helen's phone, could they map it's movements still? I know they've got it linking to the Broadstairs hub, but is that because they had already had the good fortune of being able to examine the actual hub, rather than her phone?

I remember the police asking him if Helen's phone would connect with his BMW. But I'm not qualified (as you can see) to infer a meaning in that question.

 

[jessie]

Just looking over the Cambridge News page - have we seen this little nugget before?!

"Mr Polley said the dog, trained to assist in the recovery of deceased victims, ‘indicated’ at a bucket of cleaning materials in the utility room, as well as a bench in the kitchen dining area and a pair of trousers in the main bedroom."

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/fianc-royston-author-helen-bailey-12518246

That information is a clincher for me.

 

[Tortoise]

Rather than add more to my previous post, I will put up a new one.

Two other thoughts.

From the refuse tip to the train station is 3 minutes.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/R...8e51e8d42583503!2m2!1d-0.02689!2d52.05309!3e0

Could he have left the tip by 3.15 ( allowing an earlier departure from the Surgery ) and switched off the phone as he went past the station ? to connect it with Helen and a train journey ?
But still doesnt make sense to carry the phone around, unless it would not matter, because the range would be similar to being at Hartwell Lodge ( triangulation )

Or.........is the Refuse tip clock incorrect, in that it had not been changed to British Summer Time ( which would have been only a few weeks prior ).
So the actual time at the tip was 4.02 pm

Good thinking Batman! Shame the police don't very often do what I call proper detective work, on these kinds of details. I wouldn't even blame it on cutbacks, sometimes I think they just don't think of checking. I've noticed a few occasions of what I think is sloppy police work during this trial, one officer said I don't remember if there was anything covering the manhole! Another mentioned in a sworn statement Helen's 'account', but didn't say if it was a bank account or an email account, vis-a-vis the Arsenal tickets. Anyway, rant over. It's clear that the doctors records didn't tally with the tips records, so it doesn't present an easy picture for the jury to follow. It would have been very easy when they recovered the CCTV footage to compare the equipment with current time and spot a discrepancy.

 

[Alyce]

If the clock was wrong at the refuse tip - as in one hour wrong - then all other timings could work

2.40 ish approx IS departs Hartwell Lodge

2.54pm Arrives Surgery

3.07pm Departs Surgery

3.18pm Arrives back at Hartwell Lodge and switches off Helen's phone, which he had left in the house

Then decides he really should take duvet to dump, rather than leave it in storage room in garage ( that's assuming its not already in his car ).

Has a rummage round, finds more papers for Solicitors.

3.45pm ? departs Hartwell

3.50 pm Arrives Solicitors, drops off papers

4.02pm Arrives refuse tip

then he could have gone down to Morrisons and even had a hair cut, before getting home at 5pm ( if he wanted to be seen driving into the house at 5pm )

 

[Alyce]

Back to my ignorance of phones again, but if they never found Helen's phone, could they map it's movements still? I know they've got it linking to the Broadstairs hub, but is that because they had already had the good fortune of being able to examine the actual hub, rather than her phone?

I remember the police asking him if Helen's phone would connect with his BMW. But I'm not qualified (as you can see) to infer a meaning in that question.

If her phone was switched on, until 3.18pm then they should have been able to track it or find a record of where it was up until that time.

However, the distance/area between the Surgery, the Refuse Tip, Hartwell Lodge and even the Solicitors is fairly small, so I expect the best they could do would be to track it to somewhere within that small area. So the danger of him having the phone in the car with him , whilst switched on, would not be huge.

I am not hugely technical on such matters, so if anyone else can let me know if this is feasible or not

 

[Tortoise]

So the dog indicated on a bench in the kitchen dining area.

I've found these two pictures of what I think must be that bench, a curved corner seating area by the table

Did Helen sit there at 11am, and succumb to the drugs? :frown:

 

[Rayemonde]

So, just musing along those lines.

His wife died in 2010, how long would that money last ? No mortgage, but has to support himself and two non working children...

Didn't the sons work? I assumed they both worked.

 

[Alyce]

Didn't the sons work? I assumed they both worked.

still school age at the time, and then Uni age....

sorry, typing too quick, as always. My point was, they would need financial support for several more years.

 

[icemaiden65]

So the dog indicated on a bench in the kitchen dining area.

I've found these two pictures of what I think must be that bench, a curved corner seating area by the table

Did Helen sit there at 11am, and succumb to the drugs? :frown:

If so, then look at the plan below:

He would only have had to move Helen from the kitchen through the door at bottom left of the room plan, through the corner of the central hallway then along the narrow and quite short passage to a door to the back garden. I don't know for sure but would hazard a guess that the whole kitchen floor area and route to the back door is tiled and therefore cleanable. Plus, the outside door is in a nice 'alcove' area.

 

[Rayemonde]

BBM:

Jamie Stewart told the court, when he got home from work the following day - 12 April - his father told him Ms Bailey had left him a note saying she had gone to Broadstairs "to get some time for herself".

https://www.google.com/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38638088?client=ms-android-sonymobile

 

[JudgeJudi]

I've looked up the Air Cadets Bassingbourn Squadron that OS belonged to, to see what time they meet on Mondays, and it's 6:45pm to 9:45pm. It's at SG8 5LX, 5 miles from home, and 10 minutes by car. So he would have left home at around 6:30.

IS was in Cambridge at 6pm. That is a 30 minute drive away, so he would need to have left by 5:30pm.

OS says he saw his father


I'm not doubting OS' testimony, just trying to see how it fits. If OS was home before IS left at 5:30pm, but didn't need to leave himself for another whole hour, I wonder why the reference to the conversation being brief - dad knowing his 'Monday night routine' makes it sound quite rushed.

Perhaps he confused himself - the interaction was brief because IS was in a hurry to leave.

Then there is time unaccounted for that afternoon.

The trip from doctors to tip takes 11 minutes (according to Google maps)

If the timing of CCTV at Royston Recycling Centre is correct he would have had to have left the doctors by 2:51pm. Yet he didn't arrive at the doctors until 2:54pm, so the tip CCTV clock (3:02pm) must be wrong.

Going with the doctors records, he left there at 3:07pm. So he would have arrived at the tip at 3:18pm.

Strangely, Helen's phone disconnects from the network at 3:18pm. Did he do this in the car, to make it seem as if that was the time Helen left home, while he was out, and switched her phone off so he couldn't contact her?

So from 3:18 there is 1 hour and 42 minutes to fill until 5pm.

The solicitors is 7 minutes by car from the tip, and 5 minutes from home.

Even if he spent 42 minutes unloading boxes & duvet, and dropping off paperwork, there is still an hour missing.

I think he went home after the tip and had to look for Helen's paperwork before going to the solicitors. I wonder if the prosecution has more evidence of his car movements that day. They checked local CCTV and ANPR for Helen's car that morning, but did they leave it too late by the time he was declared a suspect, to check his movements on local cameras?


Another thing that I find strange is the Crown's opening statement -

[FONT=&]“A standing order from Bailey to Stewart was modified that same afternoon, and changed to the defendant’s advantage - a standing order from £600 to £4000 - to transfer from Helen’s account to Stewart’s. Although an attempt has been made to clear computer history at the house, this small fragment of information was found.”

This sounds as if it was successfully changed, so I can't understand the attempted access to her bank account at 7:58pm.

[/FONT]

I'm wondering about this as well.

“Ms Bailey’s bank account was accessed at 2.30pm from the defendant’s Windows 10 computer, and he transferred £4,000 from her account to his – shown in a fragment of data by police when the computer was recovered”.

This places him at home at 2.30pm for your timeline and states that the transfer was successful. It would be interesting to know why he was attempting to access her account again at 7:58.

http://www.thecomet.net/news/ian_st...fter_partner_repeatedly_drugged_her_1_4843988

 

[Alyce]

My final thought re the timings !

Depart Surgery 3.07pm

Drive from Surgery to Tip is 7 minutes according to google, but they are often not completely accurate.

So assume the drive took less time, say 5 minutes.

This gets us to 3.12.pm ........could the 3.02pm reading have actually been 3.12pm

 

[snoopydog]

Remember when you log into your bank now it's put different numbers of your password in so it might be number 3,5 and 7 of password then number 2,4 and 6 of security number. They are so easy to make a mistake on. I do it with mine all the time and have to redo it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[icemaiden65]

I'm wondering about this as well.

&#8220;Ms Bailey&#8217;s bank account was accessed at 2.30pm from the defendant&#8217;s Windows 10 computer, and he transferred £4,000 from her account to his &#8211; shown in a fragment of data by police when the computer was recovered&#8221;.

This places him at home at 2.30pm for your timeline and states that the transfer was successful. It would be interesting to know why he was attempting to access her account again at 7:58.

http://www.thecomet.net/news/ian_st...fter_partner_repeatedly_drugged_her_1_4843988

Possibly panicking and trying to change it back? In too much of a flap to realise the audit trail was already on record at the bank anyhow?

 

[Interested Bystander]

The very fact he attempted to wipe his computer speaks volumes. Surely he would only do that if he was guilty and there was something incriminating on it; as has proved to be the case. Can anyone think of another good reason? From that point I have thought he was guilty and so much since has cemented this opinion.

 

[Alyce]

If so, then look at the plan below:

He would only have had to move Helen from the kitchen through the door at bottom left of the room plan, through the corner of the central hallway then along the narrow and quite short passage to a door to the back garden. I don't know for sure but would hazard a guess that the whole kitchen floor area and route to the back door is tiled and therefore cleanable. Plus, the outside door is in a nice 'alcove' area.

Makes a lot of sense.

There is a pic on the previously linked right move page. I have copied the pic but it is rather small...easier to view from the link, so I am putting it up again

Pic number 5 shows the patio/terrace area and you can just see the door in the alcove

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-29951740.html

 

[Alyce]

RSBM....


Another thing that I find strange is the Crown's opening statement -

[FONT=&]&#8220;A standing order from Bailey to Stewart was modified that same afternoon, and changed to the defendant&#8217;s advantage - a standing order from £600 to £4000 - to transfer from Helen&#8217;s account to Stewart&#8217;s. Although an attempt has been made to clear computer history at the house, this small fragment of information was found.&#8221;

This sounds as if it was successfully changed, so I can't understand the attempted access to her bank account at 7:58pm.


[/FONT]

Dependent on when this money was transferred - was the SO due to pay over on that day ? - then he may have checked his joint account and not seen anything.

So he then needs to recheck Helen's sole account, to make sure he has done the change correctly.

Being as he had a very busy afternoon, he may not have had time to check any of this until he is at the bowls.

This only makes sense however, if the SO was due to pay on that day.

Otherwise, I think he was just doing a double check to ensure it had all gone through - after his two earlier failed attempts.

 

[jessie]

I wonder if he used the Grey Recycling bin for the transfer from kitchen to garage?

From their council's website Grey bins are for dry recycling, cardboard, plastic bottles etc.

Is this why he took 'cardboard boxes' to the tip - together with the duvet - because he had needed to empty the bin and so had to dispose of it's previous contents?

Helen could have remained in the bin until he had a clear opportunity to use the cesspit - at his leisure and when he had used his medication and felt able enough.