UK - Huge fire rips through Grenfell Tower, Latimer Road, White City, London, June 2017

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First, this is horrific and I hope that many more escaped than is feared. My thoughts are with the victims and their families.

Is it true that the building had no sprinkler system?
 
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-15/londoners-remember-12-victims-of-housing-block-fire/8619166
British officials said emergency accommodation was being provided to 44 households affected by the fire, with others staying at a nearby sports centre.

More than 200 firefighters, backed up by 40 fire engines, fought for hours to try to control the fire, London's deadliest in a generation.

More than 16 hours after the fire started, crews were still trying to douse flames.

London police commander Stuart Cundy told reporters he did not believe further survivors would be found in the building.

Mr Cundy warned the death toll was likely to rise "during what will be a complex recovery operation over a number of days".

At a nearby community centre used to house some of those rescued, tensions were rising as occupants waited for news.
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"Any lessons learnt from this will be borne out not just across London, across the UK — and lessons learnt globally."
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The British Government ordered checks at other tower blocks that have had, or are going through, similar refurbishments to Grenfell Tower, amid concerns that building renovations may have contributed to the spread of the blaze.

Policing and Fire Minister Nick Hurd said the Government wanted to reassure people living in other buildings.
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elfie said:
First, this is horrific and I hope that many more escaped than is feared. My thoughts are with the victims and their families.

Is it true that the building had no sprinkler system?
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It is true there was no sprinkler system the landlord and council were not prepared to pay the quoted £300,000 for one.
 
I pray that these older buildings are not used as a nefarious means in the future. IMO


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Jade said:
During an evacuation DH & I had to leave our home with two cats and a dog loose in the car in the middle of the night.

Since then I have made sure I had a suitable crate for each of my pets, including the parrot, in which they could be transported & temporarily housed in the event of an emergency.

You could get one of those folding luggage wheelies to store away to transport your “cargo”. Use bungee cords to secure and take off bumping down the stairs with everyone.

P.S. You never know if you only have minutes-please don’t wait on others to react.
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BBM: THIS!
I live in a high rise, a new one with all the fire protection one could want... However, every darn time the alarm goes off (neighbors burn toast, occasional malfunction, etc), my kids and I quickly and quietly execute our evacuation strategy. We are always quite confident that the alarm is false, but we do it anyway. This happens probably quarterly, it's good practice.

Most of our neighbors can be seen hanging over their balconies when the alarm goes off, checking to see if it's "real". For their sakes, I hope it never is.
 
An interesting point in the Telegraph:

Fears were raised that green energy concerns were prioritised ahead of safety as it emerged that cladding used to make the building more sustainable could have accelerated the fire.
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...erno-disaster-waiting-happen-concerns-raised/

And from the Mail:

Together with new windows, the cladding was meant to boost the building's energy efficiency, protect against the weather and smarten up the look of the 1970s facade.
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A report in 1999 by the Environment, Transport and the Regions select committee said: 'We do not believe that it should take a serious fire in which many are killed before all reasonable steps are taken towards minimising the risks.'
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But the method was popular as councils sought to meet insulation standards laid out under the Blair Government's £22billion Decent Homes Programme, which ran from 2000 to 2010. It continued to be used even after the 2009 fire at the 14-storey Lakanal House in Camberwell, South East London, which killed six people.
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4605360/Cladding-turned-tiny-fire-hell.html

As it happens, I was a trustee/director of a (very) small housing association from 2000 to 2007 and had some oversight of refurbishment during that period under the Decent Homes Programme. The Programme was intended to update properties built several decades previously and energy efficiency was regarded as high priority under the programme because it was driven by EU Directive. The association's flats were low-rise and also built in the early 1970s, around the same time as Grenfell Tower, and the energy efficiency requirement was met by installing double glazing and new central heating/hot water boilers. I wasn't aware of the insulated cladding issue as it was not appropriate to our properties.
 
An interesting tidbit:

Rillington Place was only a few hundred yards NNE of Grenfell Tower. Rillington Place and surrounding streets had become a slum by the 1970 and demolition had begun. 10 Rillington Place itself had had already demolished and filming for the film of the same name was therefore done in an identical property a few houses along. When filming was complete the rest of the street was demolished.

I suppose it's not too much of a stretch to think that tower blocks such as Grenfell Tower were built to rehouse local families displaced by slum clearance nearby, and to wonder whether any of the earliest tenants actually knew or remembered John Christie.

See linked map. Grenfell Tower is the square shape at the bottom, next to the words Lancaster Green. Rillington Place was where Bartle Road is flagged by the pin to the NNE. I believe that the site of number 10 is the small gap between the blocks of low-rise flats about 20 yards ENE. The actual site of the house was left unbuilt-on as a memorial to the victims.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...56553ca2f3ea8ab!8m2!3d51.5158126!4d-0.2143122
 
I've just read a VERY interesting article in the Telegraph. Unfortunately it's behind a paywall but you can register to read one premium article a month for free, and I suggest this one is worth the hassle.

It's by a building inspector and fire engineer of 30 years experience and the main points he makes are:

1. UK building regulations require that where exterior cladding is used on tall buildings, firebreaks must be inserted every so often up the building to prevent fire spreading up and down the cladding. If the regulations are followed, what happened should not have happened.

2. There is a vertical gas main running up the full height of the tower, and this had recently had work done on it. If fire retardant materials were removed to access the gas main, they should have been replaced when work was complete. Since the fire spread up the tower so quickly, this is something that needs to be looked at.

3. UK building regulations for flats in tower blocks have long required each flat to be built as a fireproof box, with firedoors within the flat and a firedoor at each flat's entrance. This is why advice is to stay in your flat during a fire because you should be perfectly safe. It's also why tower blocks do not have a central fire alarm system because hundreds of people pouring down a staircase in panic create a danger in themselves and impede the firefighters going up.

4. The approval for the refurbishment works was done on a fast track process where the plans would not have received the full scrutiny they would have done under a full planning application. It's therefore possible that elements of the specification might not have been appropriate but this was not picked up.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...renfell-tower-inferno-should-have-impossible/
 
Interesting point in an article about KCTMO in the Evening Standard:

Meanwhile the company's board consists of eight residents, four council-nominated and three independent board members
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http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...-properties-have-they-worked-on-a3565311.html

So residents made up more than half of the KCTMO board.

I don't know anything about these specific legal entities, but I have to ask why, when the tenants comprised more than half of the board, they seemed unable to hold the executive directors and managers to account. I'm going to hazard a guess (and it is only a guess) that the tenants lacked the confidence, knowledge and gravitas to stand up to the professional managers actually running the TMO. If this is the case, then there's a governance issue here as well.
 
I totally appreciate how horrendous it is for those searching for loved ones, but I am seeing a lot of anger about lack of information and news of the missing. I don't think I need to state the obvious, confirmation of the dead will take weeks, not hours.

I have just seen a Muslim lady on BBC News ranting about how it feels like revenge for terrorist attacks. Did anyone else see it? I'm not sure which element of this tragedy she thinks is revenge?
 
Fire service is unable to give a figure of the number missing. As an example, they know one individual has been reported missing 46 times.
 
A firefighter called Mick has attained cult following after posting a picture on Twitter of a telling detail about the fire and then refusing the Sun permission to print it.

The firefighter, who tweets under the name Crispymick, posted a picture of his helmet with his name on it, with the comment: “You know it’s not going to be good when you’re told to write your name on your helmet before you go in!”
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Theresa May has left the area apparently without meeting residents.
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...b0240ef7614a8d#block-5942490ee4b0240ef7614a8d
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CoverMeCagney said:
Those ladders are a good idea, Safeguard. Even one of those on every floor would be useful in a situation like this.

I'm just watching BBC and they're explaining about the "stay put" policy which is typical of high rises. Firefighters need to be able to get up the stairs and fire doors are meant to protect residents, they don't want hundreds of people charging down the stairs preventing firemen from putting the fire out so they're told to stay where they are. I'm surprised buildings this tall need only have one stairwell, that seems crazy to me.

I live in a 4 storey house and our local fire brigade came round to do a free alarm fitting service and to discuss escape routes. Plan A is using a huge/heavy wooden didgeridoo we have on the landing to smash out the bathroom window, jumping onto a flat roof and down into the garden. Everyone should think about what they'd do in case of a fire at home, especially at night.
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I don't live in a high rise, I live on the top floor though but there is just ground floor, first floor and me on the top floor. One time my neighbour down on the ground floor, who's daughter was playing with matches on her bed.... great parenting. The bed and then the bedroom caught fire. Nobody was hurt thankfully but we were told to stay inside, keep the windows closed and the firefighter would let us know when it was safe to come out. The smell of smoke was intense and it stuck around for weeks.

Since that day I've rehearsed what I would do if I needed to get out and how I'm going to get all the cats to safety, because I ain't leaving them!! I have a dog crate in the spare room, My windows are large, they rotate all the way around so the crate fits. I'd never get them in the cat boxes, they see one they run and hide cos they think it means they're going to the vet! The crate, chuck a few dreamies in there no problem. Cats in crate, crate out the window. If I had to jump I may break an ankle but it's a plan lol

We only have one stair case but there are only 6 flats (apartments) in my block and the lower 2 floors have fire doors and a small lobby between the stair case and their front doors.

You made me think though, usually the fire brigade come out once a year and test all our fire alarms and the fire extinguishers that are on each level of the stair case. They haven't been in the past year and the fire extinguishers are not there anymore. Hmm
 
MelmothTheLost said:
I don't know anything about these specific legal entities, but I have to ask why, when the tenants comprised more than half of the board, they seemed unable to hold the executive directors and managers to account. I'm going to hazard a guess (and it is only a guess) that the tenants lacked the confidence, knowledge and gravitas to stand up to the professional managers actually running the TMO. If this is the case, then there's a governance issue here as well.
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Righty-ho. I've had a look into this. KCTMO is a company registered under the Companies Act so its statutory directors can theoretically be prosecuted for corporate manslaughter. However as we know, more than half of the statutory directors (and therefore liable to prosecution if a case can be made) are themselves tenants and some of them are retired.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/03048135/officers

However the CEO, CFO and other executive "directors" are not statutory directors so wouldn't be liable to prosecution for corporate manslaughter.
 
Just read a comment - I cant post it here because it is only a comment, not journo info...but, in essence it says that the original Planning Application - dated October 2012 - was for zinc rainscreen cladding, plus Celotex FR5000, which is a type of insulation which has high fire resistance.
This cladding was approved in January 2014.

The specification of the cladding was then changed in September 2014
 
[video=youtube;7-Er5eVMvQc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-Er5eVMvQc[/video]
 
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