UK - Huge fire rips through Grenfell Tower, Latimer Road, White City, London, June 2017

[Elainera]

I would not leave -- we don't know the cause of ignition - they can remove the panels while Lady and I are inside
IMO just another thing govt does well kneee jerk after they messed up earlier



its not like some 100 year old hotel does not have its inherent fire risks

The deal is the fire dept can't guarnantee their safety -- I don't have a fire dept money back guarantee here!

WOuld you leave?

Yeah I would leave. It's a major nuisance of course but still better than being trapped in a fire.

 

[Jinkasaurus]

I found this video helpful- side-by-side comparison of a British plastic-backed fridge and a US metal-backed fridge catching fire. You can see that the metal backing causes the fire to be much more contained.

If this is what happened in Grenfell Tower fire, then I can understand how this fire in a fridge quickly got out of control. In less than one minute, the entire back of the fridge is on fire.

"London Fire Brigade watch manager Andy Vaughan-Davies told the Mirror: 'Once a spark ignites in the compressor which powers the freezer, it can be as little as 90 second before the whole kitchen is engulfed in flames.

'The foam used to insulate them is highly *flammable and is the equivalent to having four gallons of petrol around your freezer. Once ignited it produces an intense heat three times that of a large bonfire. This is the cause of some of the worst home fires we have had.

'Once they catch fire, they burn extremely quickly producing thick smoke and intense heat"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4634612/Video-shows-British-style-fridge-flames.html

 

[Alyce]

Hi all, I didn't realise there was a thread on Grenfell on WS. Long time since I've visited - this new re-design is a surprise.

Have been following this horrific catastrophe in detail and have a lot of links from sleuthing around but IDK how active this thread is now and whether folk would be interested>

Hi CW. Good to see u back.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Yeah I would leave. It's a major nuisance of course but still better than being trapped in a fire.

It would depend what floor I was on and whether there was an external fire escape and more than one fire escape. Why don't these places have adequate fire and smoke alarms? I am renovating 300 year old barns with only a ground floor in one building and two floors in the adjacent building. My building regs require smoke alarms in these renovations. What has gone wrong with these building inspections all over the country? These were expensive refurbs and someone has not been doing their jobs at these councils. Is there a list of all these councils anywhere?

 

[Ellmau]

There's a partial list here: http://www.constructionenquirer.com...lock-cladding-checked-so-far-fails-fire-test/

Interesting view from the construction industry:

But our response must also focus on the root causes of what went wrong at Grenfell.

There will be few in the industry who won’t feel uncomfortable about the way the culture of construction has developed in recent decades.

They will know too often individuals and firms are put in compromised positions – obliged to conduct themselves in ways that are wrong and potentially dangerous.

Construction has made great strides forward in health and safety in recent years.

This shows that an inappropriate culture can be challenged when all parts of the industry unite with common cause.

It is now time to challenge lowest cost and the pernicious culture it fosters.

The fire was an inevitable consequence of what was dreaded by many who have seen the systematic degradation of the industry in the face of short-term commercial pressures.

http://www.constructionenquirer.com...ion-must-say-never-again-to-another-grenfell/

 

[Ellmau]

Hi all, I didn't realise there was a thread on Grenfell on WS. Long time since I've visited - this new re-design is a surprise.

Have been following this horrific catastrophe in detail and have a lot of links from sleuthing around but IDK how active this thread is now and whether folk would be interested>

Please do share your information. I think this incident has touched us all.

 

[Ellmau]

Hi Alyce, I hope you and all are well .

I have saved quite a few links since this awful catastrophe but I won't bombard you all with them all.
No idea how to use this new interface but here's one of the Grenfell newsletters with photos of the cladding work and a poignant photo of one of the kids arts projects during the renovation.

http://www.kctmo.org.uk/files/105552_kctmo_rydon_grenfell_tower_newsletter_may_2015.pdf

Potentially damning quote:

The external cladding and window frames were passed on 15 May by the Council’s building
control officer.

 

[cottonweaver]

Please do share your information. I think this incident has touched us all.

Hi Elmau
It's hard to get used to the new design here at WS. I can't find the image attachment, quote tools nor the emojis yet!

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-fire-arconic-idUSKBN19F05M

Arconic knowingly supplied flammable panels for use in tower: emails:
"Six emails sent by and to an Arconic Inc (ARNC.N) sales manager raise questions about why the company supplied combustible cladding to a distributor for use at Grenfell Tower, despite publicly warning such panels were a fire risk for tall buildings. The emails, dating from 2014 and seen by Reuters, were between Deborah French, Arconic's UK sales manager, and executives at the contractors involved in the bidding process for the refurbishment contract at Grenfell Tower in London, where 79 people died in a blaze last week.
When asked about the emails, Arconic said in a statement that it had known the panels would be used at Grenfell Tower but that it was not its role to decide what was or was not compliant with local building regulations.French did not respond to requests for comment."

rest at link

 

[Ellmau]

This is interesting - official government advice on fire assessments says

Many buildings have insulated core panels as
exterior cladding or for internal structures and
partitions (Figure 17). Insulated core panels
are used because they are easily constructed,
which enables alterations and additional
internal partitions to be erected with minimum
disruption to business.
They normally consist of a central insulated
core, sandwiched between an inner and outer
metal skin, normally coated with PVC covering.
The central core can be made of various
insulating materials, ranging from virtually non-
combustible through to highly combustible.
Fire can grow unnoticed in the core and only become apparent when it is well developed.

It is difficult to identify the type of core the
panels have

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...file/422192/9281_Sleeping_Accomodation_v2.pdf

So maybe building control hasn't been quite as negligent as we've been suggesting?

 

[Ellmau]

Hi Elmau
It's hard to get used to the new design here at WS. I can't find the image attachment, quote tools nor the emojis yet!

Qoutes are easy - it's the icon at the extreme right of the reply box, and you paste your quote between the internal brackets. Image attachment options are there too - run your cursor along.

 

[cottonweaver]

Cladding installer got the Grenfell contract summer 2014. Works commenced and then had to be suspended briefly as the company put themselves into voluntary bankruptcy due to owing Omni ( who sold them the panels) almost half a million pounds. Then shortly after , they were back on site with a new name after buying back their old company assets.
Grenfell completion cert was issued July 2016
( Has been in the D Mail but it's still an interesting timeline.)
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/2417564

You can see from the newsletter photos I've posted that in 2015 they were in the build period.

 

[cottonweaver]

So I'm certainly not accusing or pointing the finger by posting the video - it's just for information purposes.
Apparently there is a time lapse film out there of the tower being clad but I have not looked for that one.

 

[FranP]

I don't work in the building industry, but I do work in property insurance, and from experience, I can say that unless you can test the interiors of these type of composite panels, there is simply no way to tell a firesafe filling from a non-firesafe filling.

I will also add that the insurance company that I work for won't insure buildings with these types of panels (PIR), for the very reason that they are flammable and that all it takes for a fire to get inside the panel is a small breach in what is usually a thin outer covering of aluminium/plastic. Once the fire is in the panel, there is no way to fight it, as you can't get at it and you don't know how far it's spread. Firefighters won't enter commercial premises (where there are no lives at stake) if these types of panels/cladding is present, because it's too dangerous.

This is interesting

 

[FranP]

Sorry, I messed up the quote function, and now I can't seem to edit it!

 

[Ellmau]

That's OK - I can see what you're quoting , and you have valuable insight to bring.

Arconic has announced it's mo longer going to sell thee panels for high rises

due to "issues" identified by the fire

. I would think sales would have gone through the floor after this anyway.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40409981

Several inquests opened and adjourned.

 

[Ellmau]

A university hall of residence has been found with the questionable cladding: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-40414502

 

[MsMarple]

Dozens of exposed gas pipes in Grenfell Tower that caused residents to fear for their safety were left bare despite a council safety expert ordering them to be protected by fire-retardant boxing.
...
In March, three months before the blaze, residents told the London fire brigade (LFB) that people living in the 24-storey tower were so scared by the pipes “that they are having a panic attack”.
...
Jevans said that the National Grid assured the council on 27 March that the pipes would be protected, but two-thirds of the lateral pipes were still exposed when the disaster happened on 14 June.
...
Neither Scotland Yard nor LFB would comment on the specifics of what is being examined. However, one survivor, Mickey Paramasivan, 37, told reporters immediately after the blaze: “There were explosions everywhere you looked, lots of bangs, blue gas coming out everywhere you looked.”

LFB also said the day after the blaze that it had not been able to put out the flames until firefighters had isolated a ruptured gas main in the block.
...
A spokeswoman for Cadent said: “The riser in the stairwell had been boxed in when the fire occurred and work was still ongoing to box in the lateral pipes [horizontal pipes to flats].”

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ft-exposed-despite-fire-safety-experts-orders

 

[Ellmau]

London Fire Brigade warned all 33 councils about the potential risks of external cladding on tower blocks in May this year, the BBC has learned.

It followed tests on panels from a high rise that suffered a fire last August.

The insulation panels were made up of polystyrene and plywood, and tests concluded they were the likely cause of the fire spreading up the outside.

The fire brigade urged councils to review their use and "take appropriate action to mitigate the fire risk".

Also, fire risk assessment system "not fit for purpose".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40422922

 

[Elainera]

It seems everything that could go wrong, did go wrong in this doomed tower. Terrible.

 

[gregjrichards]

"German authorities on Tuesday evacuated a high-rise apartment building in the western city of Wuppertal, over fire safety fears in the wake of London's Grenfell Tower tragedy.

Wuppertal authorities said they had carried out a fire safety review following the Grenfell inferno, which left 79 people presumed dead, and found that the insulation on an 11-storey building posed a risk as it is flammable.

"In this case, our experts came to the conclusion that the insulation, made of wood fibres and installed in the 1960s, is flammable and could be a danger," said Martina Eckermann, a spokeswoman for the city's authorities, adding that the staircases were also difficult to access."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...acuated-cladding-fears-wake-grenfell-tragedy/

I wonder how many of these death trap clad buildings there are out there.