GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #11

[Cherwell]

This was "2 inches" of snow in Dorset

Took a while before I even noticed the dog.

 

[Trio]

Hi All,
I have missed this Forum and the mature discussions going on here, People here are friendly, thank you for bringing the Joanna case back.

 

[Trio]

I think whoever did it was in a panic and not thinking straight. Even brilliant minds can freeze in a crisis, and there can't be any situations more panic-inducing than this. I often wonder why the killer didn't put her boots and jacket on, so that at least it could look as if she had left the flat in a car with someone rather than dying in the building. Again, panic could be the explanation. It suggests an unpremeditated murder, IMO.

I agree.

Also if Jo did not have her outdoor clothes on the jacket and the boot's, at the time when the two came into contact with each other, the Perp would not have known what outdoor clothes and boot's JY had worn that Day, but he would know that People that saw her that day would, so if he was that cunning, he could have taken any coat and outdoor shoes/boot's to make it look like JY had returned home, then had gone out again.
If he was that cunning he would have removed JY's bag and mobile etc, this would have taken the Enguiry away from the Flat, to make it look like JY had gone out that Night and met her death somewhere away from the Flat.

Why remove a body and not the personal belonging's!, perhaps JY never met her Demise in her Flat, but the Perp's Flat, hence the panic removal.

 

[notsure]

I agree.

Also if Jo did not have her outdoor clothes on the jacket and the boot's, at the time when the two came into contact with each other, the Perp would not have known what outdoor clothes and boot's JY had worn that Day, but he would know that People that saw her that day would, so if he was that cunning, he could have taken any coat and outdoor shoes/boot's to make it look like JY had returned home, then had gone out again.
If he was that cunning he would have removed JY's bag and mobile etc, this would have taken the Enguiry away from the Flat, to make it look like JY had gone out that Night and met her death somewhere away from the Flat.

Why remove a body and not the personal belonging's!, perhaps JY never met her Demise in her Flat, but the Perp's Flat, hence the panic removal.

If she took the pizza with her, that would explain its disappearance. Only thing is, wouldn't she have taken her key with her to get back in?

 

[Robin Hood]

If she took the pizza with her, that would explain its disappearance. Only thing is, wouldn't she have taken her key with her to get back in?

Or her boots to keep her feet dry.

 

[Pisces Cloud]

If the screams were indeed hers at 9pm then I doubt she's had time to do anything, but take off her coat/shoes, drink some of the cider and perhaps put the pizza in the oven. Then the killer's either called on her or she's come across him already in the flat, IMO.

 

[Robin Hood]

It's possible the 9pm scream was heard at the front of the house because what was happening was at the side. Maybe the later scream at midnight could be heard at the rear only because whatever was taking place had now moved to the back of the flats where there is car standing space and a shed.

 

[Cherwell]

The "_____ help me" is unusual. It was reported by someone that has an apartment in the building facing Joanna's flat. He was on his computer, heard the cry, went outside for about 10 seconds, saw how icey it was and assumed that it was someone that slipped on the ice. It was several days later that he realized that it may be significant and reported it to police. He thought that it was around midnight, and went back into his internet history to try to pinpoint a time, but was unable.

This witness was quoted as being unsure which night this happened. His assumption that it was someone who had slipped on the ice suggests to me that it was probably not the night of the 17th/18th, but the following night. Fresh-fallen snow isn't very slippery. But on the following night (the Saturday night), the snow that fell on Friday night would have been freezing and the pavements would have been icy then.

 

[Trio]

If she took the pizza with her, that would explain its disappearance. Only thing is, wouldn't she have taken her key with her to get back in?

Hi Notsure.

Yes I would think so, but VT could have then taken the key, entered JY's Flat, placing the Key in JY's bag, that is if it is a Yale type of lock, because all he would have had to have done is just pulled the door shut on his exit, it would lock straight away, you don't need a key to close and lock the door with a Yale type lock, on closing the door it automatically lock's the door, but you would need the key to double lock the door though.

The Perp if he wanted to could come and go as he pleased to JY's flat, over that Weekend, right up until the time GR came back from Sheffield.

 

[enqueteur]

There are lots of variables to consider in trying to determine whether the body was covered sufficiently with snow to avoid detection or not.
Factors such as existing snow, wind velocity, type of snow ie powder vs packing, change in temperatures, would all be factors in determining the significance of snowfall on the verge and JYs' body.
Yesterday it snowed 25 cm where I live, but because of the conditions I mentioned up there, I can see green grass in one part of my back yard, slight coverage at the bottom of my shrubs, yet a 90cm drift by the fence.
Having said that, even if 2" of snow fell uniformly on the body, in the best conditions to keep it in place, there is still no way in my opinion that she couldn't've gone unnoticed for a week.

 

[Deckard]

I cannot see Jo being killed anywhere but her own flat because her boots were there. It is possible she was killed in a neighbouring flat and then the boots and her door keys staged but highly unlikely imo. Also unlikely she would go outside on a freezing night with just socks on no matter how short the trip.

All things being equal Jo's flat is the murder scene imo.

Assuming the saliva DNA is not GR's how did it get on to her body?

There were no signs of a struggle in her flat or on her body.

1. Was Jo a willing participant in wanting to be physical with her killer before being killed? My hunch is no. Jo not only lived with GR but worked with him. If they were together 24/7 where is the opportunity to start casual relationships with other men? Also if VT were having a clandestine relationship with Jo why would she text MW for a drink on a night she knew GR would be away. Surely she would instead have gone straight back to the flat. It was the first time (at least since October) that she had the place to herself.

2. Was Jo under duress and too frightened to fight back? Possible but if the screams were hers at 9pm she showed a predisposition to " not go quietly " imo.

3. Was the DNA transferred to the body post mortem? This is my most likely scenario. The presence of saliva on her stomach is curious. It is not an overtly sexual location, more intimate imo. Does this make it more likely the perp was very familiar with her or a stalker? I just don't know. Whoever it is, he coveted her.

 

[notsure]

Yes, he coveted her. Isn't there a phrase "you covet most what you see every day?" Just suppose this guy has developed an obsession with her, and takes the opportunity to pop round knowing the b/f's away. She's a lovely friendly girl, and he might misinterpret that as something else. But even so, wouldn't he just go in, be friendly and give things time to develop, not just pounce immediately, which is what seems to have happened (going by the fact that she didn't answer her phone any more and only drank a bit of cider). It's really hard to imagine a scenario that fits in with the known facts. Unless he was out of his mind on drink or drugs...

 

[notsure]

Hi Notsure.

Yes I would think so, but VT could have then taken the key, entered JY's Flat, placing the Key in JY's bag, that is if it is a Yale type of lock, because all he would have had to have done is just pulled the door shut on his exit, it would lock straight away, you don't need a key to close and lock the door with a Yale type lock, on closing the door it automatically lock's the door, but you would need the key to double lock the door though.

The Perp if he wanted to could come and go as he pleased to JY's flat, over that Weekend, right up until the time GR came back from Sheffield.

Hi Trio,

It would be very risky for him to go back into the flat, though. How could he be sure she hadn't been missed and being looked for already?

 

[wfgodot]

Yes, he coveted her. Isn't there a phrase "you covet most what you see every day?"

Marcus Aurelius again, with a worthy assist from Dr Hannibal Lecter: from First Principles

 

[Phillb]

This witness was quoted as being unsure which night this happened. His assumption that it was someone who had slipped on the ice suggests to me that it was probably not the night of the 17th/18th, but the following night. Fresh-fallen snow isn't very slippery. But on the following night (the Saturday night), the snow that fell on Friday night would have been freezing and the pavements would have been icy then.

Very good point Cherwell. If he presumed the scream was someone slipping in the ice/snow is right, then your spot on it can't have been Friday night. It didn't start snowing until after midnight on Fri 17th. C.C.T.V footage of Jo, and particularly the Hogs Head footage shows dry and clear streets just before 9p.m.

Well spotted

 

[moshimoshi]

I cannot see Jo being killed anywhere but her own flat because her boots were there. It is possible she was killed in a neighbouring flat and then the boots and her door keys staged but highly unlikely imo. Also unlikely she would go outside on a freezing night with just socks on no matter how short the trip.

All things being equal Jo's flat is the murder scene imo.

Assuming the saliva DNA is not GR's how did it get on to her body?

There were no signs of a struggle in her flat or on her body.

1. Was Jo a willing participant in wanting to be physical with her killer before being killed? My hunch is no. Jo not only lived with GR but worked with him. If they were together 24/7 where is the opportunity to start casual relationships with other men? Also if VT were having a clandestine relationship with Jo why would she text MW for a drink on a night she knew GR would be away. Surely she would instead have gone straight back to the flat. It was the first time (at least since October) that she had the place to herself.

2. Was Jo under duress and too frightened to fight back? Possible but if the screams were hers at 9pm she showed a predisposition to " not go quietly " imo.

3. Was the DNA transferred to the body post mortem? This is my most likely scenario. The presence of saliva on her stomach is curious. It is not an overtly sexual location, more intimate imo. Does this make it more likely the perp was very familiar with her or a stalker? I just don't know. Whoever it is, he coveted her.

I've been thinking, there was conceivably an attempt to resuscitate. Saliva can be transferred by hand, for example after wiping one's mouth.

 

[Deckard]

I've been thinking, there was conceivably an attempt to resuscitate. Saliva can be transferred by hand, for example after wiping one's mouth.

That is a mighty good explanation ! Puts the ball back in VT's court if it were true.

 

[Phillb]

There are lots of variables to consider in trying to determine whether the body was covered sufficiently with snow to avoid detection or not.
Factors such as existing snow, wind velocity, type of snow ie powder vs packing, change in temperatures, would all be factors in determining the significance of snowfall on the verge and JYs' body.
Yesterday it snowed 25 cm where I live, but because of the conditions I mentioned up there, I can see green grass in one part of my back yard, slight coverage at the bottom of my shrubs, yet a 90cm drift by the fence.
Having said that, even if 2" of snow fell uniformly on the body, in the best conditions to keep it in place, there is still no way in my opinion that she couldn't've gone unnoticed for a week.

Great point made thanks enqueteur.
Not really wanting to go into this snow thing again. But yes you are quite right indeed, it isn't like sprinkling sugar on a glued surface. Light snow falls don't adhere to every rounded surface at the sides. And then what has accumulated on the sides is fighting a loosing battle with gravity. It gradually falls off. Only heavy snow covers everything.

Anyway to the point in question.

I've actually found (much to my gobsmacked astonishment ) what I first thought was a frozen dead body photograph. It's actually a picture of a 19 year old woman called Jean Hilliard who's car broke down in minus 25 tempratures overnight. She was frozen solid and looked dead. There was no signs of life, no movement. She was as good as dead, and everyone thought she was.

Incredibly she survived with no ill effects at all.

I'll not post the picture here as I feel it wouldn't be right, but will add the link to the story if anyone wants to look. It isn't a horryfing picture or anything, Just completely bizarre. It certainly makes clear in my mind the doubt of light snow cover being able to hide an adult body.
http://forum.santabanta.com/showthread.htm?t=172543

Amazing that the woman is still alive there, and very uncanny how she too has dark grey/black trousers, and a Green top on. I've posted this because I feel visual things are far better at focusing the mind to think clearer.

 

[Cherwell]

It certainly makes clear in my mind the doubt of light snow cover being able to hide an adult body.

That's an interesting anecdote, but I don't see what it has to do with snow cover. :waitasec:

The article says she was found lying in the snow - not that she was covered at all - and the picture was clearly taken elsewhere after she had been moved.

 

[Phillb]

That's an interesting anecdote, but I don't see what it has to do with snow cover. :waitasec:

The article says she was found lying in the snow - not that she was covered at all - and the picture was clearly taken elsewhere after she had been moved.

Meaning how snow covers arms and legs at the side, or in reality it can't cover them in shallow snow. All the bits that stick out e.t.c. I doubt the body was completely flat like a wrapped mummy.

She was supposed to be covered in snow for 7 days don't forget. Otherwise she'd have been found earlier
(If it was there)

Make sense to you now? :waitasec: