GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #13

[goldielox]

Of course, I feel that there must be more to Tabak's plea than a simple guilty to manslaughter, probably he is trying to claim diminished responsibility due to a psychological condition or a psychotic break due to stress. If that were the case then he could be sent to a hospital and then released as soon as he is better. In some cases that can be a very short amount of time (i.e. a few years). So perhaps that is why they want to present their case to a jury and prove otherwise.

That's very rare, and an extremely difficult outcome to secure so doubt it will go in that direction at all.

Lawyers are usually heavily against going down this route and advise accordingly. Their reasoning being that if given a prison sentence then the person obviously receives a sentence and at the end of that sentence will be released at some point (with a few exceptions of course).

If a hospital order is imposed then the person goes to a (highly) secure (Broadmoor and the likes and by no means a picnic) hospital unit and for an indefinite period of time. After a couple of years or so they could be judged "sane" enough to be released from hospital. However they could also end up in that hospital for the rest of their lives too. The likelihood is that someone deemed unwell enough to merit a hospital order would probably spend longer in a secure hospital than they would had they received a prison sentence instead.

More likely a scenario were Tabak to take this route would be that he'd receive a prison sentence regardless. He might still spend some time in a secure unit if it was deemed that he merited it but on the proviso that once any condition was stabilized that he'd be returned to a prison to continue his sentence.

 

[kemo]

Could someone explain to us Yanks how the system works in the UK. I find the concept of pleading guilty to a crime (manslaughter, in this case) that he has not been charged with makes no sense. In the US, we have "behind the scene" negotiations where a Guilty plea to a lesser charge will be offered to avoid a trial on the more serious charge. The offer would not be disclosed because it would jeopardize the defenses position if it went to trial.
Now, everyone knows VT did "something bad" to JY. What does VT gain by making this plea?

 

[MMENJBRIT]

anyone seen the news? just got an email from the UK> Vincent Tabak pleads guilty to Manslaughter, but not murder.

 

[MMENJBRIT]

sorry.. did not notice prior posts I will catch up later

 

[wfgodot]

Could someone explain to us Yanks how the system works in the UK. I find the concept of pleading guilty to a crime (manslaughter, in this case) that he has not been charged with makes no sense. In the US, we have "behind the scene" negotiations where a Guilty plea to a lesser charge will be offered to avoid a trial on the more serious charge. The offer would not be disclosed because it would jeopardize the defenses position if it went to trial.
Now, everyone knows VT did "something bad" to JY. What does VT gain by making this plea?

Yes, exactly, we're baffled. (Picture baffled Yanks running around flapping their hands in the air, trying to get attention.) On the manslaughter thing, I can only offer what I posted before, that the Tabak tribe hired one said to be Britain's top pathologist - Dr Nat Carey - to examine Joanna's body, which he did do before the body was released for burial, and that perhaps his findings suggested to VT's counsel that a plea of manslaughter might be supported by the evidence (accidental strangulation perhaps, etc. Carey has done other cases in which he testified about strangulation; in at least one, his learned opinion was that death in that case was accidental).

 

[aneurin]

A manslaughter plea I see. So he did do it.

And what's that noise I hear? Oh yes, that's the sound of a few theories coming crashing to the ground. I'd better have a look and see if anyone's actually been saying anything sensible since I was here last.

 

[Paulette]

Imagine my surprise when I went to the guardian and saw "Joanna Yeates's neighbour admits killing her" LE had it right all along. Geez...

Doesn't manslaughter imply "accidental"? How the h*** does a big man accidentally strangle a smallish woman? Bah humbug!

 

[2goldfish]

I would like to take this opportunity to apologise from the bottom of my heart to joanna's boyfriend greg whom I suspected very much & to the police force who I felt sure had their thumbs up their collective....well anyways I was very, very wrong. I was absolutely floored when I read about his plea but clearly the police knew what they were doing and I for one am very sorry for my suspicion of greg reardon because he's certainly been through enough without that added insult.

also I would like to commend the police for a job well done, I see they got their man and justice will be served (as much as it ever is here anyways)

 

[Distant Observer]

Imagine my surprise when I went to the guardian and saw "Joanna Yeates's neighbour admits killing her" LE had it right all along. Geez...

Doesn't manslaughter imply "accidental"? How the h*** does a big man accidentally strangle a smallish woman? Bah humbug!

Manslaughter means death caused by criminal behaviour to a lesser degree than murder. For example a perp could try and stop a victim from screaming by grabbing the victim by the throat. If the defence team can show that the intention was only to prevent the screaming and not to kill the victim then the jury can find the perp guilty of manslaughter rather than murder. The sentence on conviction probably would still be life but without a recommendation to serve a pre-determined term. In English law manslaughter doesn't have the stigma of murder as it can include causing death from merely negligent behaviour and sentences can be very lenient.

 

[bees]

Imagine my surprise when I went to the guardian and saw "Joanna Yeates's neighbour admits killing her" LE had it right all along. Geez...

Doesn't manslaughter imply "accidental"? How the h*** does a big man accidentally strangle a smallish woman? Bah humbug!

It might be possible if he had her in a headlock from behind and didn't realise how much he was compressing her windpipe. I'm not excusing him at all - just surmising that someone could die from compression to the neck without the assaulter meaning to kill them.

I think the same thing happened to Michaela McAreavey - I've read an account that says one of the burglars had her in a headlock and was trying to shut her up but she died from compression of the neck eg strangulation. That might not be true either of course!

 

[Paulette]

It might be possible if he had her in a headlock from behind and didn't realise how much he was compressing her windpipe. I'm not excusing him at all - just surmising that someone could die from compression to the neck without the assaulter meaning to kill them.

I think the same thing happened to Michaela McAreavey - I've read an account that says one of the burglars had her in a headlock and was trying to shut her up but she died from compression of the neck eg strangulation. That might not be true either of course!

Pleading guilty to manslaughter is just being clever, but it's all he's got.

2nd degree murder is more like it - murder of passion. But even that doesn't fit. 1st degree murder is probably the truth - he had to have known that she knew him and would tell. He'd have been ruined - that's quite a motive for murder.

And then there's disposing of the body.

 

[notsure]

I wonder if he'll reveal what happened to the pizza? Judging by the sang-froid he has demonstrated, it wouldn't surprise me if he coolly ate it while deciding what to do with the body.

 

[bees]

Maybe the forensic evidence will show whether she was strangled by his hands - the bruising marks should show that. You can't accidentally put your hands around someone's throat and squeeze until they stop breathing.

I remember the police said they collected someone else's DNA from her torso but can't remember if they mentioned DNA on her throat / neck.

 

[Deckard]

I remember the police said they collected someone else's DNA from her torso but can't remember if they mentioned DNA on her throat / neck.

The broadsheets seem to mention The Sun for breaking this info quoting saliva samples found on her chest and stomach under her clothes along with on her jeans.

This lead some (moshimoshi I believe) to speculate that the perp's saliva had possibly been wiped on his hand and subsequently passed to the body during resuscitation attempts. That seems plausible to me although of course it could have been purely sexual.

If Jo had come around to VT's flat I felt the saliva could have been transferred to her jeans if VT had gone fishing for her flat keys to stage her boots to suggest kidnap.

 

[Clio]

Could someone explain to us Yanks how the system works in the UK. I find the concept of pleading guilty to a crime (manslaughter, in this case) that he has not been charged with makes no sense.

Pleading guilty to voluntary manslaughter can be used as a partial defence against a charge of murder. The case will go to court as a murder charge and the jury will probably be instructed by the Judge to find him guilty of manslaughter only if there is reasonable doubt that he murdered her.

Partial defences, are different to complete defences, such as self-defence, as they bear all the ingredients of murder but if successfully argued, reduce the offence to an act of" voluntary manslaughter" not murder.

There are three partial defences to murder: loss of control, diminished responsibility and killing in pursuance of a suicide pact.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/h_to_k/homicide_murder_and_manslaughter/#a08

What will be interestiing is what evidence they have that made him plead guilty to anything. We won't know that until the trial

Or maybe he just confessed for some reason.

 

[Clio]

I read that the jurors are to visit Jo's flat during the trial. Is that normal, for jurors to visit victims' homes?

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...y-to-manslaughter-over-joanna-yeates-death.do

according to the Guardian, the prosecution requested a move to Winchester because of publicity surrounding the case in Bristol (pretty lame excuse if you ask me seeing as this has been reported and debated intensively nationally!), but the Judge felt the trial could take place in Bristol.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/may/05/joanna-yeates-neighbour-admits-killing

Maybe the reason the Judge rejected a trial in Winchester is to facilitate a jury visit to the flats? I agree that there has been such widespread coverage, it possibly wouldn't make a lot of difference where the trial was held.

 

[PolkSaladAnnie]

mrbond - yes, I remain "totally & unequivocally" convinced that this is not even manslaughter - it's cold blooded MURDER.

This monster did everything to save his own hide. He allowed CJ to take the fall for him - when he quickly flew out to Holland over New Year - KNOWING his friend and neighbor had been arrested for his crime?? Good GRIEF - that's evil! Now he pleads "it was an accident" - so manslaughter is the plea? Balderdash.

This was no accidental killing. This was a must* in VT's head. If he didn't murder Jo - there would be a living, walking, talking witness to his lecherous, heinous and despicable fetish. Without Jo, no-one would know the monster lurking beneath the "intelligent, nice, affluent, successful veneer" that made up VT.

VT is all about HIMSELF. *Anything* to save himself. Including murder. I hope and pray the pros do NOT accept his miserable plea and bend him over for trial 1st degree. It's nothing less, IMO.

I'm also bringing back snipped portions of my previous post (255-ish, lol)here:

"..... FWIW, I don't think the distraught and apparently sobbing woman was the final nail in his coffin, so to speak as the police would surely not charge anyone with murder due to an upset woman phoning in. I actually think the press dramatized the "sobbing" bit ... as an (unofficial) police spokesperson may have simply said "the caller was deeply upset; you could hear it..." and this translated via the press to tearful, then crying and finally we heard "sobbing". I'm surprised we didn't eventually read about "an hysterical woman".

Whomsoever made that call connected existing dots and I believe the police validated the call .... as whatever was told by the caller matched what police already knew. Thus, that call was deemed genuine and may have only solidified detectives findings.

VT's first alibi changed - he said he wasn't there and didn't know Jo. This turned out to be untrue ... there are many things that I firmly believe indicate this man murdered Jo. Jo arrives home and within 15 or so minutes - she's also dead. VT is a people-flow monitor. He *knows* how to watch people; has all the equipment - who's to say he didn't set up a spy-camera in her bathroom/bedroom and she discovered this shortly after getting home? What if VT assumed Jo left with GR to Sheffield, or was picked up? What if VT was INSIDE fiddling with cameras, spy-holes - or even going through her stuff? All speculation, indeed ... but thinking aloud and just saying. WHAT was so dramatic that Jo was killed for it? VT would have had a lot to lose if Jo's testimony went "out there". By silencing her permanently, he gambled that he may have gotten away with it (my opinion and views).


Intelligent, nice, clever, rich or talented people do some really dumb things; it's not only the village idiot, gangsters or street thugs committing crimes. Take a look at Brad Cooper, for instance.

VT was remanded without bail - which wasn't even applied for. Barring bail requires serious charges ... and this case went through the highest in the land - outside of police detective work. He was put on suicide watch... why? The shame this must bring to his exceptionally influential and wealthy family has to be horrendous. They believe (I'm sure) he's innocent. They're entitled to that belief, of course......"

 

[PolkSaladAnnie]

Just adding .......

That I feel his 1st Degree rap charges will include:

Obstruction justice
Perverting the ends of justice
Tampering with a corpse
Unlawful disposal of a corpse
Stalking
Kidnapping
Assault with sexual intent
[ETA] Breaking & entering (trespassing)

And .... VT may go down in the anals of British criminal history lurking with the unsavory likes of Ian Huntley, Myra Hindley, Ian Brady ... etc ... and he may even possibly surpass Huntley as Britain's Most Hated Inmate.

He's a giant of a monster. The evidence has to be so overwhelming that there was no way he could deny it. So he pleas accident. As though he is equally a victim in all of this? Rubbish. Jo obliviously walked into her flat and discovered hideous scenes. And I think the moment that man leaped onto her, she knew it was the end. Hence the painful "Help me!" cry.

And he killed her for fear of discovery. Fear of loss.

I just knew it ... there was no other logical reason why Jo died within minutes of arriving home; VT was spying on her ... and she caught him out. Have no clue if true - I just think this is the case given his "expertise" as a People Flow Monitor.

What a nasty piece of work he is!

 

[notsure]

I agree with what you say, PSA. How must VT's girlfriend and her parents feel, knowing that she had been living all that time with that psycho?

 

[notsure]

Just adding .......

I just knew it ... there was no other logical reason why Jo died within minutes of arriving home; VT was spying on her ... and she caught him out. Have no clue if true - I just think this is the case given his "expertise" as a People Flow Monitor.

I think something like this scenario might have taken place, and it would also explain why the jurors will be taken to see inside her apartment.

It's difficult to image what other scenario could have led to her death in such a short space of time. (She would surely have been in contact with someone by phone if she had not been killed fairly soon after arriving home.)

Originally, I thought perhaps he went round and suggested a friendly pre-Christmas drink (fairly normal behaviour) and then he made a pass, which she rejected. He, being drunk, persisted, and he ended up strangling her in a fit of rage. This now seems unlikely. I don't think he would have progressed to that stage so rapidly.

It could well be that he was in her flat when she got home. He knew that her boyfriend was away. Perhaps when she didn't arrive home at the usual time, he assumed that she had gone to spend the night somewhere else, and saw this as an opportunity to set something up, or simply to have a look inside her flat.