GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #13

[kINGFISHER]

If he was already there how did he get into the flat ,was it through the partition door, and if he had keys why did he have them.? No specific date to the time of murder from the 16th to the 19th quoted in a newspaper.
Was she killed there or taken somewhere else.
All those who said his web picture seemed inocent.

 

[PolkSaladAnnie]

I think something like this scenario might have taken place, and it would also explain why the jurors will be taken to see inside her apartment.

It's difficult to image what other scenario could have led to her death in such a short space of time. (She would surely have been in contact with someone by phone if she had not been killed fairly soon after arriving home.)

Originally, I thought perhaps he went round and suggested a friendly pre-Christmas drink (fairly normal behaviour) and then he made a pass, which she rejected. He, being drunk, persisted, and he ended up strangling her in a fit of rage. This now seems unlikely. I don't think he would have progressed to that stage so rapidly.

It could well be that he was in her flat when she got home. He knew that her boyfriend was away. Perhaps when she didn't arrive home at the usual time, he assumed that she had gone to spend the night somewhere else, and saw this as an opportunity to set something up, or simply to have a look inside her flat.

Hi notsure - thanks for your post. Uncanny stuff, eh? Perhaps he assumed Jo had gone ahead of Greg ... and therefore confident the coast was clear to adjust / fiddle / update or replace his equipment? Possible? Indeed.

Look at the floor plans. Then reconsider VT's expert career and immense experience *watching people* as a people flow monitor. He's well-used to getting into places and spaces to simply watch people .... now go back to the floor plans -----> and you'll identify the location of Jo's bedroom and bathroom in relation to VT's "office" or "computer room" (spare room).

He didn't require keys or permission to get in. After all, he's a sneak. Therefore, I strongly suggest he climbed through the ceiling ... as he'd done before the 17th, IMO, and this time Jo caught him.

So add "breaking and entering" to his rap sheet!

 

[PolkSaladAnnie]

If he was already there how did he get into the flat ,was it through the partition door, and if he had keys why did he have them.? No specific date to the time of murder from the 16th to the 19th quoted in a newspaper.
Was she killed there or taken somewhere else.
All those who said his web picture seemed inocent.

OK. So his picture seemed innocent to "all those" claimants?
Done. Better ignore his confession and get him out of jail very quickly.

 

[kINGFISHER]

So a hole in the ceiling do you mean large enough for him to get to get through and be confronted by Jo when she arrived at the flat like you said. If it was a small hole to insert equipment or camera in the ceiling then she would not have seen him at that point he would not have been in the flat.

 

[PolkSaladAnnie]

Hello kINGFISHER .... *you* said hole. Not me. I suggested he broke into Jo's flat *through* the ceiling. As in the trap doors in apartments giving access to the heating, ventilators, electrical cords, geysers, etc for maintenance and repairs.

VERY easy to do. More ESPECIALLY so ... considering Tabak worked on buildings as a career (project management design, people-flow monitor expert etc all in his PhD don't forget).

Furthermore, I suggest he was arrested so soon after his return to UK from Holland as police may have feared he may harm another witness. That fear may have added to the fact he was held without bond - meaning a very serious, grave offense indeed.

What witness? (Anyone, we don't know that yet. Could be the Sobbing woman?) After all, he'd just murdered Jo - a witness to his lecherous and lascivious way. What would another life to him be worth?

It's all about *him*. Protecting his butt, IMO.

 

[Firefly75]

OK. So his picture seemed innocent to "all those" claimants?
Done. Better ignore his confession and get him out of jail very quickly.

I'm not saying he's innocent at all, but you just cannot condemn (or suspect) someone solely on the basis of a shadow photo. Unless it shows the crime itself perhaps.

I sincerely believe LE has more to go on than a stupid web picture. They have more evidence than we know about.

If a stupid FB photo were proof enough, well, all they have to do is have a look around on the net and pick up everyone who's got some kind of stupid (and this is a wide term) photo of themselves up, and there will be no more unsolved crimes. Or unemployment. Or accommodation shortage for that matter.

 

[kINGFISHER]

I'm not saying he's innocent at all, but you just cannot condemn (or suspect) someone solely on the basis of a shadow photo. Unless it shows the crime itself perhaps.

I sincerely believe LE has more to go on than a stupid web picture. They have more evidence than we know about.

If a stupid FB photo were proof enough, well, all they have to do is have a look around on the net and pick up everyone who's got some kind of stupid (and this is a wide term) photo of themselves up, and there will be no more unsolved crimes. Or unemployment. Or accommodation shortage for that matter.

True, but taking into account all the other circumstances etc I would have said a highly suspect photo, exactly as the police thought at the time an unusual picture. . Shows maybe how unwittingly it can reveal some of the psyche.

 

[kINGFISHER]

Hello kINGFISHER .... *you* said hole. Not me. I suggested he broke into Jo's flat *through* the ceiling. As in the trap doors in apartments giving access to the heating, ventilators, electrical cords, geysers, etc for maintenance and repairs.

VERY easy to do. More ESPECIALLY so ... considering Tabak worked on buildings as a career (project management design, people-flow monitor expert etc all in his PhD don't forget).

You are right that would certainly be the case if there was an attic door or large enough vent, spot on I would say. A long time to wait for the trial let's hope they look after him until then. I thought it had gone too quiet, not much support for some time from the people protesting his innocence in Holland or UK.

 

[notsure]

I'm wondering if he had been drinking heavily or taking some other kind of drugs that made him become delusional. Would that qualify as "diminished responsibility," do you think? If he turns out to have a history of drug addiction, would that support his plea of manslaughter?

 

[aneurin]

Therefore, I strongly suggest he climbed through the ceiling ... as he'd done before the 17th, IMO, and this time Jo caught him.

You are right that would certainly be the case if there was an attic door ...

In a basement flat???

 

[aneurin]

... considering Tabak worked on buildings as a career (project management design, people-flow monitor expert etc all in his PhD don't forget).

My best recollection is that VT worked on computer programs that modelled 'people flow' in buildings. My brother once worked on computer programs that modelled traffic flows on motorways and the like. He can't even ****** drive a car. Don't mean squat really.

 

[aneurin]

... and I'd just like to note how much the tone of this thread appears to have changed.

I now see that a certain mild mannered Dutch professional with his faithful girlfriend that no one believed was capable of so much as saying boo to a goose, has now suddenly become some kind of depraved monster.

He still deserves a fair trail tho'.

 

[Cherwell]

I'm astounded at the assumptions (some of them completely without foundation, as far as we know) that are being stated as fact by some posters.

 

[Clio]

I'm wondering if he had been drinking heavily or taking some other kind of drugs that made him become delusional. Would that qualify as "diminished responsibility," do you think? If he turns out to have a history of drug addiction, would that support his plea of manslaughter?

For the general defence of diminished responsibility, intoxication will NOT count among the specified causes outlined in the Act

However, surprisingly, if the defendant is suffering alcoholism, then drinking could be taken into account as the cause of the abnormality of mind

From http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A665633

However, I also found this

‘If a man is charged with an offence in which a special intention is essential (as in murder though not in manslaughter), then evidence of drunkenness, which rendered him incapable of forming the intention is an answer….

If a man by drinking brings on a distinct disease of the mind such as delirium tremens, so that he is temporarily insane within the M’Naghten rules, that is to say, he does not at the time know what he is doing or that it is wrong, then he had a defence on the ground of insanity

from http://legal-directory.net/english-law/qualification-to-criminal-liability.htm

 

[notsure]

That's very useful, Clio. Thank you.

 

[whiterum]

How must VT's girlfriend and her parents feel, knowing that she had been living all that time with that psycho?

And also knowing that poor Jo’s frozen body was found dumped and her family totally devastated, the day her killer ‘The lovely Vincent, the fine young man’ sat at their table eating dinner

 

[edgedweller]

<<As in the trap doors in apartments giving access to the heating, ventilators, electrical cords, geysers, etc for maintenance and repairs.>>

i don't think a house of this age would have anything in the ceilings like vents, crawlspaces, etc. Even when converted into flats, the ceilings tend to remain untouched, and certainly a crawl space that isn't full of joists would be very rare, IMHO. And he's not a small man either. Maybe he had the keys from CJ once for some reason and had copies made? I think the adjoining door is likely to be completely bricked up and plastered over too.

 

[notsure]

... and I'd just like to note how much the tone of this thread appears to have changed.

I now see that a certain mild mannered Dutch professional with his faithful girlfriend that no one believed was capable of so much as saying boo to a goose, has now suddenly become some kind of depraved monster.

He still deserves a fair trail tho'.

It is bound to change now that we know that he did it. There's a sense of relief that they have the right man, and then a sense of anger that a man who seemed to have so much going for him would take the life of a young woman.

 

[Deckard]

The one thing we now know is that at some time between the 16th and 19th of December VT entered Jo's flat.

Either a) he went round proactively to start a dialogue with her knowing GR would be absent or b) she came round to him and, after she died, he left her boots and keys back in her flat.

If a) he is under enormous pressure when the text notification comes through and would have to instigate a blitzkrieg of activity to cover his tracks.

If b) the ball is momentarily in his court and he has breathing space to figure out a plan. The text from MW may well be moot as Jo may not have had her mobile on her to travel the short distance next door.

It's a completely senseless waste in any event.

I am now thinking if the hidden camera idea is true it makes a) slightly more likely than before as he would know with near certainty that Jo was alone. The missing pizza could then have been damaged in the scuffle and not merely burnt and discarded to hide the timeline.

The notion of the quiet, studious VT knocking on Jo's door to set the ball in motion I had previously discounted. He surprised many of us by admitting culpability so who knows what he was secretly capable of.

FWIW I think the ceiling trapdoor in the basement is pantaloons

 

[kINGFISHER]

<<As in the trap doors in apartments giving access to the heating, ventilators, electrical cords, geysers, etc for maintenance and repairs.>>

i don't think a house of this age would have anything in the ceilings like vents, crawlspaces, etc. Even when converted into flats, the ceilings tend to remain untouched, and certainly a crawl space that isn't full of joists would be very rare, IMHO. And he's not a small man either. Maybe he had the keys from CJ once for some reason and had copies made? I think the adjoining door is likely to be completely bricked up and plastered over too.

This is what I thought keys from someone else, CJ. As for the ceiling entry we don't know for certain that there is one but if there is that theory would make perfect sense. There would have to be some form of ventilation in the bathroom I would have thought.


Cherwell quote I'm astounded at the assumptions (some of them completely without foundation, as far as we know) that are being stated as fact by some posters.

He has pleaded guilty to manslaughter which the prosecution and judge deems unacceptable so he is being tried for murder or do you still believe he is innocent.