GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #14

[Clio]

Stairs? I can't see any stairs on the plan...

Good point, Jo may have fallen down the stairs after being pulled inside, accounting for the dull thump.

I also read somewhere that the hall was slightly sunken and there were a few steps down into the hallway from the front door. No idea if this is true or not as would be very dangerous.

Looking at the video of the interior, it doesn't look to me like there are any steps.

 

[bax]

http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16087619

video here. I agree - not much to see out of the (tiny) kitchen window.

But the stonewall seems to be much lower and you can see clarely the windows of the neighbour house...but iI guess 10 month ago these windows were covered by scaffoldings.

 

[Clio]

Why is there a microphone at the window?

Wonder if they played a recording of a scream to see if the jury could hear it whilst standing outside number 53?

He also asked the jury to walk from 44 Canynge Road to the front door of number 53, and consider whether it is possible that a scream from number 44 could be heard there

 

[whiterum]

I guess the missing stones are removed for DNA and the like. Some of her 43 injuries must have came whilst he tried to get her over that wall

I'm not really sure but can it not be determined at autopsy, if injuries were anti-mortem, peri-mortem or post-mortem. Something due to the heartbeat stopping ?

 

[stmarysmead]

My best guess is that Jo caught him in her apartment. He was "bored" all right. The girlfriend at a party. Why not amuse himself, poke around a little?

Was he in the bedroom..maybe looking through her lingerie...and she let herself in, and started to settle in before realizing it? Do we know where the old connecting door was?

This would be something so embarrassing to him...how to explain to his girlfriend, his work colleagues, his family? The amazingly high opinion they all held of him would be shattered. He would be.."a weird guy."

IMO Tabak could not deal with that sort of personal mortification. I think he would kill to stop it.

I'm not sure he will tell the truth at trial. I suspect he will try to make himself "a victim."

But, if there was no previous violence, and no relationship between the two, I think he murdered Jo to cover up something that would, in his mind, destroy HIM.

 

[veggiefan]

Looking at the video of the interior, it doesn't look to me like there are any steps.

I agree. As whiterum says, it would be dangerous to have steps immediately on the inside of the door - building control would have insisted on a flat landing when the house was converted to flats.

 

[Clio]

I agree. As whiterum says, it would be dangerous to have steps immediately on the inside of the door - building control would have insisted on a flat landing when the house was converted to flats.

I think some of the confusion came about because the media insisted on calling them basement flats, implying that the interior floors were lower than ground level. Looking at the the interior stills now coming out, that doesn't seem to be the case and it really is a ground floor flat.

 

[bees]

Photos of the inside of the flat - looks like police concentrated on kitchen & bathroom for fingerprint tests - is that the black stuff?

http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/Phot...flat-Clifton/story-13540011-detail/story.html

 

[veggiefan]

Was he in the bedroom..maybe looking through her lingerie...and she let herself in, and started to settle in before realizing it? Do we know where the old connecting door was?

Yes, it was behind the bed. If you check the video at 32", it is clear that there is no longer any sign of it. The opening has been filled up and the wall replastered.

Personally, I'm rather persuaded by the scenario posted by bees, that some sort of altercation happened - or at least started - on the doorstep. Let's not forget that the entire door was removed for forensic analysis at an early stage in the enquiries.

If JY, in the flat on her own on a dark night, had been startled by a dark shadow outside the kitchen window and had gone to the door with a knife in her hand, not recognising that it was her neighbour (whom apparently she didn't know) who knows what might have happened in a very short space of time?

 

[veggiefan]

Looking at the video of the interior, it doesn't look to me like there are any steps.

In fact, that can now be confirmed by the shots of the inside of the hall (thanks, bees), looking towards the door, at:

http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/Photos-released-Joanna-Yeates-flat-Clifton/story-13540011-detail/story.html

(There is perhaps a small threshold step, but certainly no stairs or flight of steps)

 

[whiterum]

I certainly wouldn't open my door if I saw a shadowy figure on a dark night, or heard a tap at the window or door, unless they personally identified themselves, no way Jose!!!

 

[stmarysmead]

My problem with the altercation theory is that there is no indication that Tabak had a violent nature. Let's say this startled neighbor said some things that made him very angry...think of the amount of time it took for him to choke the life out of her...think of the struggle. Just by his size, he was in control of any altercation. How does an altercation with an angry neighbor lead a previously non-violent man to murder?

I think it had to be an event that in and of itself made Jo a threat to him.

Of course, we may never know. He lied at the first and will no doubt do whatever lying he can do now to ameliorate his situation.

 

[Clio]

Apparently there is a video of the interior flat being shown on SKY and BBC news now. From someone looking in the kitchen window from the outside, what would the view of the room have been? What could VT see?

Here is a photo showing the view into the kitchen from outside

 

[bees]

My problem with the altercation theory is that there is no indication that Tabak had a violent nature. Let's say this startled neighbor said some things that made him very angry...think of the amount of time it took for him to choke the life out of her...think of the struggle. Just by his size, he was in control of any altercation. How does an altercation with an angry neighbor lead a previously non-violent man to murder?

I think it had to be an event that in and of itself made Jo a threat to him.

Of course, we may never know. He lied at the first and will no doubt do whatever lying he can do now to ameliorate his situation.

I agree it will be very difficult to believe anything he says.

He used a lot of force on her and I think it's quite possible he'll try to minimise his guilt (and sentence) by saying it was some kind of self defence.

 

[stmarysmead]

I certainly wouldn't open my door if I saw a shadowy figure on a dark night, or heard a tap at the window or door, unless they personally identified themselves, no way Jose!!!

Another good point. A confrontation with a neighbor in broad daylight with others on the street or coming and going from their flats might be something many young women would undertake.

But was Jo accustomed to being alone? On a dark night...finally safely inside her apartment, would she open her door to confront a strange man outside?

There is a mysterious unknown to this story that put these two neighbors on a collision course that ended in death. I think it concerns Tabak and his "boredom." If he killed to cover it up, I doubt he will see any advantage to himself in telling it now.

He will need to make Jo share the blame for her death in order for it to be manslaughter. Strangulation while one looks into the victim's dying eyes is a very personal crime.

 

[Redgoblin]

Why had the defence made the kitchen window an important part of its argument. From the pictures I've seen JY front door had a spy hole so she would have seen someone if they were stood outside her door?

If VT is home in his flat and he notices JY come home he could of seen her pass his windows either on the front of his property or the back depending on the route she took to her front door.

The most logical route would be to pass VT's living room window at the front of the building especially if it was dark. As we all know it's more difficult to make out details like colours if for instance you are the person inside a lighted room and looking outside.

Now, either way VT or JY could of mistakenly assumed that either one of them was an intruder, yes I think that is a strong possibility.


Could it be they both thought the same thing at the same time? - INTRUDER ALERT!


But the question then that would be asked of yourself would you go out and confront them?

I know I wouldn't. I would be phoning a friend or ringing the police.

This is where IMO the defence falls down.


Personally I think he planned it all along. JMO.

 

[bijoux]

Here is a photo showing the view into the kitchen from outside

Thank you, Clio. It looks like VT may have been able to see a little beyond the kitchen.

He used a lot of force on her...

I want to wait till the defense cross examines the pathologist on this. From what I've been reading on manual strangulation, it does its job very quickly. We haven't been given a time-frame regarding how long they estimate the struggle lasted. Was it 2 mins or 10 mins?
Also I want a better explanation of those 40 some odd injuries she sustained. Cross examination may paint an entirely different picture, as their own autopsy may have revealed other factors ie. some of those injuries were not sustained during the attack, but after the attack.

I think it's quite possible he'll try to minimise his guilt (and sentence) by saying it was some kind of self defence.

I think there is a possibility VT may not take the stand, in which case it will be up to WC to shoot holes through the prosecutions case, to raise reasonable doubt.

 

[whiterum]

We haven't heard from the Prosecution witnesses yet, who knows what may be revealed about his past or whatever. He may seem to many on the surface to be lily white but there could be a few dark skeletons in his cupboard yet to be revealed.

Its bad enough but you could maybe understand someone trying to distance himself or lying to save himself but what kind of person would point the finger at an innocent man, he would have let poor CJ languish in jail if he had gotten away with it.

 

[Pisces Cloud]

Another good point. A confrontation with a neighbor in broad daylight with others on the street or coming and going from their flats might be something many young women would undertake.

But was Jo accustomed to being alone? On a dark night...finally safely inside her apartment, would she open her door to confront a strange man outside?

There is a mysterious unknown to this story that put these two neighbors on a collision course that ended in death. I think it concerns Tabak and his "boredom." If he killed to cover it up, I doubt he will see any advantage to himself in telling it now.

He will need to make Jo share the blame for her death in order for it to be manslaughter. Strangulation while one looks into the victim's dying eyes is a very personal crime.

She might have confronted him if he had her cat and was handling it roughly because he had found it in his flat again. I do think though that if they had argued then other people would probably have heard.

 

[bees]

Why had the defence made the kitchen window an important part of its argument. From the pictures I've seen JY front door had a spy hole so she would have seen someone if they were stood outside her door?

If VT is home in his flat and he notices JY come home he could of seen her pass his windows either on the front of his property or the back depending on the route she took to her front door.

The most logical route would be to pass VT's living room window at the front of the building especially if it was dark. As we all know it's more difficult to make out details like colours if for instance you are the person inside a lighted room and looking outside.

Now, either way VT or JY could of mistakenly assumed that either one of them was an intruder, yes I think that is a strong possibility.


Could it be they both thought the same thing at the same time? - INTRUDER ALERT!


But the question then that would be asked of yourself would you go out and confront them?

I know I wouldn't. I would be phoning a friend or ringing the police.

This is where IMO the defence falls down.


Personally I think he planned it all along. JMO.

The route she took depends on whether she went to the main house hall to collect post before going to her flat. If she didn't, then she wouldn't pass any of his windows as she would have gone down her own path to her front door (which was originally the tradesman's entrance). Did anyone ever establish whether they received their own post in their own letterbox or had to collect it from the shared hall?

As for going outside - if she didn't see clearly that it was VT passing the window, she might have initially thought it was GR come back or even CJ and opened the front door without checking the spy-hole. She might even have recognised VT by sight as her neighbour and opened the door to him.

All conjecture of course and I really hope the prosecution can thoroughly test everything VT's defence says in order to get at the truth. He's told so many lies that he's got an uphill struggle to make his story (true or otherwise) appear credible to the jury.