GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #14

[Luna15]

Interesting. So if he had been away before, possibly she had hated it and therefore dreaded being apart from him again. But on the other hand, it may well be that she dreaded it because it was the first time in that flat, as you emphasised, and that she was afraid of being on her own there. It was a ground-floor flat with its own entrance, separate and secluded from the comings and goings of the occupants of the upper-floor flats through the main entrance to the house, yet fairly visible, open and accessible from the road (no lockable fence or gate to the side passage, cutting off access from the front). Maybe that made her feel vulnerable which, as it turned out, unfortunately, she would have been right to feel. It would have been unlikely and indeed impossible for him to do at least some of the things he did that night had he had to enter and exit the house through the main entrance.

Another thought: on those other occasions in a different flat, I wonder if she had arranged to visit her family or friends or have someone to stay.

I'm sorry but I still find it incredible that Greg accepted her not replying to his text to say he'd arrived safely and asked her how she got on at the pub...

her first weekend in that flat on her own, she was "dreading" it and no one checked up on her...... defies belief.

 

[wfgodot]

It's looking clearer and clearer to me that Joanna wanted company that evening: hence spate of texts to friends. I read this as being due to loneliness, neither more nor less. But doesn't it make it credible that she might have initiated contact with VT, even inviting him in ? And then he might have misread the signals, and I don't need to spell out the rest of how things might have occurred thereafter.

Interesting thought and point taken, but would wanting company extend to a face to face offer to the hulking guy she'd never met in the next apartment who was clearly in a relationship as he was living with someone?

 

[Trouble007]

maybe the worry of being alone was fueled by some sort of prior concern around the flat?

 

[Clio]

Interesting thought and point taken, but would wanting company extend to a face to face offer to the hulking guy she'd never met in the next apartment who was clearly in a relationship as he was living with someone?

We only have VT's word that she'd never met him

The fact that he was already in a relationship may have made him "safe" company

That said, I think it's unlikey

 

[Cherwell]

As regards the security light, could this not have been triggered by Joanna herself arriving home? I may have got this wrong, but weren't the Lehmanns pretty close behind her. Some security lights can be programmed to remain on for seconds only, or for several minutes as preferred.

As far as I can remember they didn't note the colour, type or registration, and I'm astonished that they therefore reported it to the police.

I'm sure they did - otherwise there would have been no point in reporting it. They had ample opportunity to get the details. I imagine that the vehicle was traced and eliminated quickly, therefore we heard no more of it. There is no reason why that would have been made public.

 

[Trouble007]

As regards the security light, could this not have been triggered by Joanna herself arriving home? I may have got this wrong, but weren't the Lehmanns pretty close behind her. Some security lights can be programmed to remain on for seconds only, or for several minutes as preferred.

excactly why i mentioned it, as the timing all fits, i think you are right they were following behind?, she goes to her front door, sets off the light, they then hear the screams, look in that direction and see the light on. it fits the bill of her going into the flat and then possibly being confronted.

 

[whiterum]

But is was very frosty. From Julia Reid's tweets today



Didn't VT tell the police he had gone out and slipped on the ice? Maybe he had a reason to make sure he didn't slip again?

If he had slipped and broke his two hips whilst carrying the body, he would have probably said Jo was partly to blame since his two arms were occupied at the time and with the extra weight, he had to take the full brunt

 

[bijoux]

But doesn't it make it credible that she might have initiated contact with VT, even inviting him in ?

Not sure about that scenario, but at the beginning of the case I recall LE stating they were looking at her facebook friends and I think they said her privacy settings were lax. Maybe she posted on FB that she would be alone for the weekend and/or that she was free on Friday night?

 

[Nausicaa]

Interesting thought and point taken, but would wanting company extend to a face to face offer to the hulking guy she'd never met in the next apartment who was clearly in a relationship as he was living with someone?

Surely it is now clear from the witnesses who spoke to VT and his girlfriend in the days following the disappearance that Joanna did know him - just not very well. They had a passing acquaintance. He was her neighbour. He was in a stable relationship. It was Christmas. He doesn't look like anyone's idea of a potential aggressor. There was plenty of light and activity around, neighbours at home. She clearly didn't like being alone. (I don't think she was physically frightened, just in no mood to be lonely.) Her texts are not eliciting replies, she sees him about. She invites him in for a drink...

Just a hypothesis, but one which fits in with certain known facts and gets around the inconceivability of his just deciding to walk in and murder her. Also avoids the need for improbable scenarios enabling him to be inside her flat when she arrives.

 

[notsure]

It's looking clearer and clearer to me that Joanna wanted company that evening: hence spate of texts to friends. I read this as being due to loneliness, neither more nor less. But doesn't it make it credible that she might have initiated contact with VT, even inviting him in ? And then he might have misread the signals, and I don't need to spell out the rest of how things might have occurred thereafter.

At the beginning, to me it seemed like a possible scenario that he went round to her place (maybe to bring back the cat) and she invited in him for a drink (or he kind of invited himself in). At some point he made a clumsy pass, which she rejected, then he flipped. I still think that would be a possibility, but not if he killed her so quickly after she got home. In that scenario, it would have taken more time to get to that point. Come to think of it, it still wouldn't fit together, because she didn't text anyone or answer calls after she got home.

 

[whiterum]

maybe the worry of being alone was fueled by some sort of prior concern around the flat?

I was thinking that, did she have a instinctive creepy feeling about someone or of being watched but didn't mention it in case she was imagining it.

If she did, turns out she was right.

 

[Sammyme]

Interesting thought and point taken, but would wanting company extend to a face to face offer to the hulking guy she'd never met in the next apartment who was clearly in a relationship as he was living with someone?

I raised that possibility in post 664:

...or did she even seek some help or contact in the immediate neighbourhood because of her fear?

But I wouldn't have thought she would have invited him in, all the same.
It might be something else, such as asking for a phone number so that she could call someone nearby in case of emergency? Would she even approach the neighbours and ask for that, though? Maybe she was more reserved than that.

Reading posts above about the weather, the frost, the slipperiness under foot etc started me thinking that it would be even more unlikely that anybody would be wandering about in the cold outside someone's flat in such conditions on a dark December evening. What would possess VT to want to leave the warmth and comfort of his own flat to go out into the cold on such an evening? Was it perhaps the cat that went to his door and drew him out? Or was he really weird enough to be lurking and loitering in the cold and dark?

 

[Sammyme]

As regards the security light, could this not have been triggered by Joanna herself arriving home? I may have got this wrong, but weren't the Lehmanns pretty close behind her. Some security lights can be programmed to remain on for seconds only, or for several minutes as preferred.



I'm sure they did - otherwise there would have been no point in reporting it. They had ample opportunity to get the details. I imagine that the vehicle was traced and eliminated quickly, therefore we heard no more of it. There is no reason why that would have been made public.

Yes, it could.

As for the timings, yes, I get the impression the Lehmans were out and about around the same time as Joanna. That said, I have read several variants of the timing of Joanna's arrival home, including 8 30, 8 40, 8 45, 8 50, even 9 something...the reporting is not always as accurate as one would wish.

 

[notsure]

What would possess VT to want to leave the warmth and comfort of his own flat to go out into the cold on such an evening? Was it perhaps the cat that went to his door and drew him out? Or was he really weird enough to be lurking and loitering in the cold and dark?

He had cycled home in the cold. We know from his texts to his girlfriend that he was bored and restless. There was a festive atmosphere around Bristol - office parties, parties in the surrounding houses; his own g/f off to a party. He wasn't happy to be alone that evening; he was at a loose end. Maybe the Christmas atmosphere even triggered some kind of home-sickness and then memories of childhood, and then he suddenly feels that familiar feeling of being alone, despite all his academic success. Why can't he have what other people have? Maybe I'm going too far in my ideas, but I suggest it was rage against people in general that made him flip that night.

 

[whiterum]

VT does not appear to have co-operated with the LE very much. If he has admitted manslaughter why has he not told them about the pizza or the missing sock? It seems to me that Mr VT will not help his proposal of manslaughter if he is seen to be unco-operative.

Prosecutors admit that Tabak is the only person who can solve the mystery of what happened to the pizza bought by Miss Yeates but never found. The basil and mozzarella pizza became a key part of the police investigation.
Mr Lickley said Tabak 'took the pizza and one of her socks'. 'Why? Only he can say', he said.

As you say he admitted to manslaughter to killing Jo, we know he tried to cover up the killing, so why not come clean about what happened to the pizza and especially the sock. If he threw it in the bin why not say so, he does not have to reveal he ate it ( not the sock). If it is seemingly irrelevant now, why maintain the mystery ?

The police and the public have made a big deal about these missing items, so maybe he just wants to keep them hanging, something ‘only he can say’ Mr Lickley words

 

[goldielox]

And the significance of this is.....?



simply the fact that for it to be on, there must have been activity under it at the time of the screams or just before? sorry i should have mentioned it was activated by a motion detection device, but most are

The one at my front door isn't motion sensitive. It comes on as it gets dark. The one at the back of the house is, and stays on for two minutes once activated.

I'm sure in photos of the outside of the building in January and in the dark did show the light as being on.

 

[wfgodot]

Surely it is now clear from the witnesses who spoke to VT and his girlfriend in the days following the disappearance that Joanna did know him - just not very well. They had a passing acquaintance. He was her neighbour. He was in a stable relationship. It was Christmas. He doesn't look like anyone's idea of a potential aggressor. There was plenty of light and activity around, neighbours at home. She clearly didn't like being alone. (I don't think she was physically frightened, just in no mood to be lonely.) Her texts are not eliciting replies, she sees him about. She invites him in for a drink...

Just a hypothesis, but one which fits in with certain known facts and gets around the inconceivability of his just deciding to walk in and murder her. Also avoids the need for improbable scenarios enabling him to be inside her flat when she arrives.

I know. Your position is well-stated. My protest adds up to, "But that is not my present view of the case!" lol. He does, however, look a bit threatening to me, and always did - but that's always been in light of his arrest and charges being brought, so one can't read to much into it.

I do see Daily Mail has, of course, published an image to inflame my prejudices! Help! Run!

 

[wfgodot]

I raised that possibility in post 664:

...or did she even seek some help or contact in the immediate neighbourhood because of her fear?

But I wouldn't have thought she would have invited him in, all the same.
It might be something else, such as asking for a phone number so that she could call someone nearby in case of emergency? Would she even approach the neighbours and ask for that, though? Maybe she was more reserved than that.

Reading posts above about the weather, the frost, the slipperiness under foot etc started me thinking that it would be even more unlikely that anybody would be wandering about in the cold outside someone's flat in such conditions on a dark December evening. What would possess VT to want to leave the warmth and comfort of his own flat to go out into the cold on such an evening? Was it perhaps the cat that went to his door and drew him out? Or was he really weird enough to be lurking and loitering in the cold and dark?

My fault, I missed it - have been WS-busy with an apparent kidnapping case in Kansas City, my old stomping grounds. Must give this more attention, mea culpa.

 

[Sammyme]

He had cycled home in the cold. We know from his texts to his girlfriend that he was bored and restless. There was a festive atmosphere around Bristol - office parties, parties in the surrounding houses; his own g/f off to a party. He wasn't happy to be alone that evening; he was at a loose end. Maybe the Christmas atmosphere even triggered some kind of home-sickness and then memories of childhood, and then he suddenly feels that familiar feeling of being alone, despite all his academic success. Why can't he have what other people have? Maybe I'm going too far in my ideas, but I suggest it was rage against people in general that made him flip that night.

Yes, he cycled and was the outdoor type. Cycle home in the cold and frost and once you get home and thaw out, you do not want to venture out again. That's my experience, anyway! I took it that he sent those texts to his girlfriend after the murder of Joanna, so the restlessness and "boredom" were a disguise and a euphemism for the agitation and upset he must have been feeling as a result. It is not very plausible to me that someone would normally be bored and restless just because their partner was out for one evening at a party. He knew she would be home later and they had the whole weekend to come. It beggars belief that a man of such intellectual resources could not find something to interest him enough to pass the time in comfort and leisure alone for one evening.

 

[Nausicaa]

We know from his texts to his girlfriend that he was bored and restless.

He may very well have been bored and restless before the incident but the text to his girlfriend in which he said this was sent after the prosecution think he had killed Joanna and therefore, to say the very least, cannot be relied on as representing his real dispositions. There must be few things less boring than having to discreetly get rid of an inconvenient corpse and create an alibi in a short space of time while appearing as normal as possible.