GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #14

[bees]

It seems like all the signs are that he strangled her with his hands - I fail to see how anybody could argue that's manslaughter rather than murder.

That poor girl suffered physical pain and mental anguish during the assault - what a dreadful way to die and how appalling for her loved ones to know what she endured.

I had hoped that it was an accident and she died quickly but her 43 injuries show that wasn't the case. What a cruel waste of such a bonny young woman.

 

[veggiefan]

It seems like all the signs are that he strangled her with his hands - I fail to see how anybody could argue that's manslaughter rather than murder. (

Robert Brown, the airline pilot who bludgeoned his wife to death with a claw hammer and buried her in a grave he'd prepared earlier, successfully pleaded guilty to manslaughter and was cleared of murder only a few months ago.

It just needs the jury to be convinced of temporary insanity, perhaps brought on by rage.

It didn't do Brown much good though - he got 26 years in prison for manslaughter, which is more than many people get for murder.

 

[Redgoblin]

If VT or TM had an allergy to cats, they shouldn't have been living in the building or moved out sooner if it was that much of a problem.

The Pros has said that she suffered a slow and painful death. How can it possibly be manslaughter?

 

[Clio]

Did he kill her as soon as she arrived home? Why?

Good question!

The prosecution is saying that he killed her within minutes of her getting home, largely due to the times screams were heard. If he did, that sort of suggests that it was planned. It's hard to imagine what incident could have escalated to such a degree in such a short time, especially if they didn't even know each other.

However, it looks like the defence is going to suggest that the screams did not come from Jo and were not related at all.

From skynewsgatherer Harriet Tolputt

Jury also to look at distance from #JoannaYeates flat and the door where witnesses heard a scream. Defence says scream was not connected

If the defence can cast doubt as to whether the screams really came from Jo, then that widens the time window in which she was killed. I guess that leaves an opportunity to describe a situation where the killing was not planned.

Can't imagine what that situation might be though, given the following statements tweeted from court today

she had 43 separate injuries. Including marks on both wrists.

death was "uncomfortable and painful". It was not instantaneous says pros QC

He might have let go at any point but he did not. He knew she was in pain and struggling to breathe." court told.

 

[veggiefan]

Re-quoting part of Redgoblin's quote:

"Tabak replied, enclosing a link to a news website, and writing: “Creepy. So they really think she left home by herself? Maybe its linked to the headaches she had.""

Hmm. What are these headaches that nobody has ever mentioned, and how would he know if JY suffered from headaches if he'd never met her? More lies ... or are we going to hear of some row that supposedly developed over noise from the adjoining flat?

 

[Cadfael]

What I don't understand is why he returned from Holland? Also I am guessing that the police did NOT suspect him at all at this point as they let him and his girlfriend freely leave the country. It seems strange to ring the police from Holland and make a statement about CJ, in seemingly trying to point the finger all he did was alert the police more to his presence and activities.

The pizza he ate wasn't mentioned to be Jo's either, from the tweets it was him stating that he 'may have eaten pizza' that night for tea. The pros havent released what happened to the pizza thus far, just stating that only VT knew what had happened to it and the missing sock.

The police seemed to only let out dribs and drabs of information which has led to most things being purely speculative at this stage, as it unfolds it just seems to be a bigger mystery than ever as to why he killed her, or what happened that night.

 

[Redgoblin]

I've lost the plot before smashed up some things in a downstairs room went a little crazy, (yes a moment of madness) when I discovered my partner cheating on me, - I didn't feel the need at the time to touch my partner, although I suppose I could have done if she was not sleeping at the time or I was the kind of person to be physical, which BTW I'm not :¬)

VT was not in a relationship with JY (as far as we know), what person loses it to that extent with a complete stranger if there is no motive (that we know of) other than a neighbourly disagreement.

I've had a 'moment of madness' before... what is his excuse... The cat.. come on.

 

[veggiefan]

If the defence can cast doubt as to whether the screams really came from Jo, then that widens the time window in which she was killed. I guess that leaves an opportunity to describe a situation where the killing was not planned.

Possible, but it may just be that usual defence trick of finding something unreliable in the prosecution evidence in order to sow reasonable doubts in the jury's mind about its reliability ... if the time taken to walk from pub to JY's flat was longer than the prosecution have suggested, if screams from the basement of No.44 cannot be heard from No.53, ... then how much more of the prosecution's case might be fanciful embellishment ...

 

[veggiefan]

Jo does not seem to be the type that would argue with neighbours

Indeed so, but it has always struck me how sad it is that these two couples, living either side of the same wall, didn't seem to know each other at all.

Of course, neither had been living there that long, but whenever we've had new neighbours we introduce ourselves the day they move in, offer to help with unpacking, and insist they come round for a drink that evening. And that's in London, which is supposed to be relatively unfriendly! I probably know everybody in our part of the street - we keep a look out for each other, help in moments of crisis, and probably know far too much about each other's business!

Idle reflection, but I wonder if this dreadful incident would have happened in the first place, if the neighbours had been known to each other?

 

[Cherwell]

If VT or TM had an allergy to cats, they shouldn't have been living in the building or moved out sooner if it was that much of a problem.

You surely can't be serious.

Anyway the cat allergy thing is purely speculation.

Put it this way, if I was the defence trying to come up with an explanation, I would rather offer the cat story than some of the other scenarios that have been touted about. Stalking. Hidden cameras. Sexual assault. A row over a pet is very much a "there but for the grace of God go I" situation which many people could relate to.

I'm afraid we must accept that there is no guarantee that we will hear the truth of all this.

 

[Sarahlou]

Re-quoting part of Redgoblin's quote:

"Tabak replied, enclosing a link to a news website, and writing: “Creepy. So they really think she left home by herself? Maybe its linked to the headaches she had.""

Hmm. What are these headaches that nobody has ever mentioned, and how would he know if JY suffered from headaches if he'd never met her? More lies ... or are we going to hear of some row that supposedly developed over noise from the adjoining flat?

IIRC there was a mention about her having suffered bad headaches in the news at the time she went missing.

 

[Clio]

IIRC there was a mention about her having suffered bad headaches in the news at the time she went missing.

You are right about the headaches. It was mentioned in the Sun on 22nd December.

Det Supt Mark Saunders called it a "complete mystery".

He added: "We're concerned for her welfare. She is a vivacious, sensible, professional woman."

He said Jo had suffered headaches in the previous week but had not attended any hospital.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...parents-plea-to-missing-Joanna-Yeates-29.html

This was also printed in the Clifton People on 21st Dec

http://www.cliftonpeople.co.uk/grou...ke-emotional/story-10406554-detail/story.html

If VT wrote the mail mentioning the headaches after the 21st/22nd he could have read it in the news.

 

[bees]

Perhaps the news link he provided with the email contained reference to the headaches - he was scouring the media regularly so would be unlikely to have missed this.

 

[bees]

Police don't do house to house enquiries at 4 o'clock in the morning! In any case, the police said that he was "cooperative" when they called on the Monday - there was nothing about an interrogation that day.

VT is reported to have told his boss that he was INTERROGATED at 4 o'clock in the morning. This was undoubtedly on the day of his arrest, when the police allowed him to call his boss to say that he wouldn't be coming in to work (ever, as it happens).

Well it was 4am when the police called on Monday 20th, which is what they were talking about in court:

@skynewsgatherer "Police spoke to #Tabak in the early hours of Monday during house to house enquires once Joanna Yeates had been reported missing."

@jonkay01 Prosecution: Police knocked on VT's door at 0415 after JY reported missing. Police said he seemed "relatively calm" and "knew nothing"

The fact that Tabak described this event to his boss as an "interrogation" doesn't mean it was one officially but of course to a guilty man trying to answer questions and cover his tracks, it probably felt like that.

 

[aneurin]

Robert Brown, the airline pilot who bludgeoned his wife to death with a claw hammer and buried her in a grave he'd prepared earlier, successfully pleaded guilty to manslaughter and was cleared of murder only a few months ago.

It just needs the jury to be convinced of temporary insanity, perhaps brought on by rage.

It didn't do Brown much good though - he got 26 years in prison for manslaughter, which is more than many people get for murder.

Brown will serve at least 13 years. The starting point for murder is Life with a minimum term of 15 years. Had he pled guilty to murder and put forward his 'adjustment disorder' as a plea in mitigation, he might well have got life and 13. And from the point of view of a 47 year-old there isn't really any practical difference between being sentenced to 26 years and being sentenced to life and 13.

So no, it didn't do him much good at all.

 

[notsure]

Indeed so, but it has always struck me how sad it is that these two couples, living either side of the same wall, didn't seem to know each other at all.

Of course, neither had been living there that long, but whenever we've had new neighbours we introduce ourselves the day they move in, offer to help with unpacking, and insist they come round for a drink that evening. And that's in London, which is supposed to be relatively unfriendly! I probably know everybody in our part of the street - we keep a look out for each other, help in moments of crisis, and probably know far too much about each other's business!

Idle reflection, but I wonder if this dreadful incident would have happened in the first place, if the neighbours had been known to each other?

When we lived in a flat, we never got to know the other people living in the building. People don't necessarily want to get involved with people with whom the only thing they have in common is a shared roof. When we (my now husband and I) moved in together, we were far too wrapped up in each other to want to meet the other couple living above us. This is going back many years, but I have vague memories of hearing their bed-springs and other noises through the ceiling every night. Not pleasant.

 

[edgedweller]

Same here - I lived with my husband before we were married and around 25 years old - we made no attempt to mix with the people in neighbouring flats. We were both working full-time and just wanted to spend time together when we weren't working. I think mixing with neighbours is something you do when you're older and less wrapped up in yourself! Or when you have young children and need other adults to keep you sane!

 

[Redgoblin]

Indeed so, but it has always struck me how sad it is that these two couples, living either side of the same wall, didn't seem to know each other at all.

Of course, neither had been living there that long, but whenever we've had new neighbours we introduce ourselves the day they move in, offer to help with unpacking, and insist they come round for a drink that evening. And that's in London, which is supposed to be relatively unfriendly! I probably know everybody in our part of the street - we keep a look out for each other, help in moments of crisis, and probably know far too much about each other's business!

Idle reflection, but I wonder if this dreadful incident would have happened in the first place, if the neighbours had been known to each other?

Perhaps not.

I leave in a flat and have neighbours on all sides. I would say we're quite friendly with each of them, and of course living so close we don't always see eye to eye with various issues sometimes to do with the communal space, but we certainly don't argue or become angry with one another. As most of us are 'working class' we have to get along as none of us plan on moving out soon.

I would say we help each other out more than anything.

 

[bees]

A&S police have released images of VT's car:

 

[Cadfael]

I've been reading all the comments and agree that we won't know much until VT starts his defence. My husband is under the impression that VT didn't commit the murder and is in fact covering for someone else....I disagree but he is convinced he is covering and did not act alone! :waitasec: